“SUPPORT THE FUCKING PUBLISHERS!”

Pixiv

You know what, I am sick of moralfags looking down on people because they read scanlations online. More than 60% of scanlations probably don’t have even have an English market, and the English market wouldn’t even have existed if not for scanlations.

I am sick of moralfags preaching about buying original merchandise of a certain area when they themselves pirate almost everything else. Then they also look down on people for reading scanlations online.

I am sick of the whole “TEH INDUSTRY IS DYING BECUZ PEOPLE STEAL STUFF FROM THE INTERWEBS!” gospel. God knows the industry wouldn’t have actually come this far without the Internet acting as a catalyst to spread it further.

I am sick of outdated Intellectual Property laws that seem to protect the creators but are actually used to enrich the rights-holders (in many cases the recording/publishing/production company) without ACTUALLY fairly giving the REAL creators their share.

I am sick of the moralfags that just pretty much act like asses just because their buying power is greater than people in third world countries without any regard for how much inequalities exist in the world economy.

Fuck all these. I do and will continue to buy original merchandise that I deem worthy enough to justify the enormous expense. Otherwise I am quite comfortable with reading scanlations and watching fansubs/raws as they come off the Internet. If there’s anything really good, then I WILL SUPPORT THE FUCKING INDUSTRY EVEN IF IT’S GOING TO COST ME HALF A MONTH’S WORTH OF LUNCH MONEY. I’m not just gonna crawl under a fucking rock just because I don’t have enough money to BUY EVERY FUCKING CONTENT I CONSUME.

Otherwise, fuck off and get the fuck off your fucking high horse before you start preaching about SUPPORTING THE FUCKING INDUSTRY. Are you even sure you’re not consuming any illegal content at all? Think about it, moralfags.

</rant>

98 Comments

  1. drmchsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 12:49 am

    SO JEALOUS~

    Um, yeah.

    What’s there to say?

    Hypocrisy is it’s own reward.

  2. NovaJinx Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 12:52 am

    Righteous dude, righteous. Internet-brofist!

  3. karuroso Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:07 am

    “I am sick of the moralfags that just pretty much act like asses just because their buying power is greater than people in third world countries without any regard for how much inequalities exist in the world economy. ”
    and even if it’s in eng i have to fu*k IMPORT from the US if i want to buy the “licensed”, and in the end it will have a little more quality than the few ones released here, what i hate more is when a group drop a project because something get licensed in the US…

  4. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:10 am

    I support your argument (especially since I’m not from the US, so the “it’s published legally” doesn’t apply to me) but dude, CALM DOWN! Language, please! Take a deep breath before someone smear chilli (of the Cabe Rawit variant) on your mouth!

  5. Nanatsuya Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:19 am

    Dear Kurogane, I love you.

    On the subject of supporting the industry, this past month, I think I’ve spent close to $500 on import goods and pre-orders. Not counting convention purchases, this is in addition to what might be $200 worth of figure pre-orders since the beginning of this year…

    My wallet is crying, but I’ll be damned if some moralfag can call me out on not supporting the industry.

  6. dKiWi Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:26 am

    It all boils down to opportunity cost in the end…

  7. Gudo Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:36 am

    Epic rant. Simply epic. Have to agree, some products just aren’t worth paying for. If you wouldn’t pay for them anyway, no one is losing money because you download them or watch them online for free. The money was never going to be spent in the first place. Sick of people who think that using a product is an obligation to pay for it – you don’t “use” downloadable TV shows the same way you “use” a candy bar – it’s still there, untouched, available for others’ use when you’re done.

  8. omo Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:55 am

    The key thing you said is the very last line.

    I mean, srsly, people violate copyright all the time on the internets, and don’t even know about it. [/Lessig]

  9. Randerith Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:57 am

    I usually lurk your blog for reviews but I think this deserves a comment. Wonderful rant. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

  10. deaky Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:04 am

    1. Scanlate/fansub, to a small audience of fans who support the product whole-heartedly.
    2. Release it to a larger audience, who demonstrate a desire to have an official product.
    3. Wait as publishers do nothing about it.
    4. Watch as the audience, who now relies on you, stop buying the inferior officially-licensed objects.
    5. Be blamed for loss of profits.
    6. Debate whether or not to respect officially-licensed products and release higher-quality versions for nothing.
    7. Be blamed for ruining the industry.

    Of course, it’s all out fault for WANTING the products, and not theirs for not wanting to SELL them to us. Fansubbers/scanlators aren’t the problem. It always comes down to the “it’s the raws” argument. But frankly, it’s not even the raws. How many non-Japanese want the raws? A few who emmigrated to other countries? A couple people learning the language via anime/manga?

    Honestly, this entire argument is bunk. They could solve the problems easily.. they just don’t want to. Because third-party licensing is so much more lucrative than just having non-profit licenses to the raws for scanlators/fansubbers. It’s also MUCH easier, because they aren’t the ones who have to do the work of translation, it’s the third parties. Why cater to a foreign market by catering to fansubbers? Why support low-profit digital copies when you could sell tangible DVDs/paper manga at an inflated cost (yes, it’s inflated.. even if North Americans don’t have to pay nearly as much as the Japanese do).

    It’s just an antiquated distribution and publishing system trying desperately to pretend it’s still relevant by vilifying the rest of the world.

  11. Sergio Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:18 am

    I think it’s good buying, as you say, stuff you deem worth your money, but the industry (this is not particular to the anime industry) thinks that every single thing you pirate is money they’ve lost. Seriously, unless you are really, really rich, it’s impossible to buy every single thing you consume on the net.

    When there was no internet, or it was in its beginnings (I’m talking about the late ’90s), I couldn’t download computer games, which is what I liked back then. And do you know what? I could afford at most 4 or 5 games every year. Thus, I would choose the ones I really, really wanted. The rest of games were just dreams… things I read about in a magazine or I just played the demos.

    Publishers must accept that whether there’s piracy or not, people can only buy a limited amount of things, so it’s impossible to meet their ridiculous expectations. They are like the dog in the manger — in the past when you couldn’t buy a game you just never played it ,now you can play it, but they don’t want you to, even if the truth is that even if you couldn’t play it (or watch an anime or read a manga) you might probably not buy it to begin with, because we’re not rich.

    The industry should also stop alienating their customers. For example, i like to check out a manga before buying it (I buy around 10 manga/light novels every month), and I read online almost all manga that I end up buying. Shutting down sites doesn’t make me feel particularly good about buying stuff, and in fact I would have never even gotten into this world if it hadn’t been for free stuff on the net.

    On the other hand, we have to admit that if they don’t make any money (I think doing business is something legit to begin with), our hobby might disappear, since it’s obvious that everyone works to make money. I think we should also be a little responsible, and publishers should actually encourage people to be responsible rather than behave like high-school bullies.

  12. Gin Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:22 am

    I do my best to support the industry when I can, but I’m a university student. I don’t exactly have all the free money in the world to access. I will buy DVDs when I can and manga whenever possible. Otherwise, yeah, I totally download and read online.

    I do encourage people to buy, because it’s my job at conventions (I work with one of the dealers). It’s a hard job, becuase people are generally apathetic to buying what they can read online for free. It’s a bit discouraging at times, but I understand a bit. In my opinion, if you can, please support your manga if you like it, and try not to be stingy. Seriously, pocky isn’t worth the price they charge you (if you want to see something that IS overhyped and inflated…).

  13. Jura Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:41 am

    Should find a way to force those people into American minimum wage jobs while they live out on their own.

  14. IWSE Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:46 am

    You have a great anime blog (it’s been several months since I’ve subscribed), but I’m disappointed to see you make such a statement with illogical fallacies.

    If someone’s being hypocritical on an issue, that does not in any way invalidate their statement. Suppose a convicted mass murderer says “Killing is wrong; the world would be a better place if no one murdered anyone.” Would that make the “Killing is wrong” opinion wrong since he himself has killed?

    The consumer’s opinion on the value of a product does not give the go ahead to pirate anyways. Does reasoning of “It’s not worth my money so I’ll take the alternative and get it for free” really work, not just here but in any other situation?

    Also, just because something helped to give rise to an industry doesn’t give you a legal right to continue it.

    I don’t look down upon on piracy due to the “financial losses” and other things like that (they do fine for the most part anyways; the “loss” from potential buyers pirating is very little). I look down upon it because it is unauthorized reproduction and distribution.

    Please put some more thought into your reasoning. You’re an awesome blogger and I’d hate to see you post like this.

  15. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:50 am

    Maybe all of this is because they realized that hadn’t for the subs, many would fell victim watching the same episode eight times before realizing that we paid eight episodes worth of money for one episode worth of story.

    And about buying the licensed product? My country rarely buy license for mature-storied anime, one time Eva exception aside (“cartoons are kid stuff”, my a**), and those actually licensed has such a poor quality that I ended up downloading anyway, just to understand what’s going on. I’m pretty sure many other non-Americans (and probably Americans too, I don’t know the quality of subbing there) have suffered same…

  16. AznCoffee Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:07 am

    That’s pretty much true.

    Like, take me with Ouran. It’s something I’d usually never even look in the same direction at. But saw it on youtube one day, loved it, bought every friggin DVD/Manga of it.

  17. Mappy Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:08 am

    I’ve always used fansubs and scanlations as a shit filter for my actual purchases. And I have always bought that which I deemed worthy of my finances. Cutting that off isn’t going to make me buy more, the opposite in fact. I’m not going to purchase anything blindly and the local distributors of anime and manga are operated by chimps with down syndrome, certainly in terms of their choices of things to license and promote. One shouldn’t reward basic incompetence.

  18. CaptainBright Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:21 am

    I don’t really know about thislah, but honestly, got to somewhat support Kuro on this one.

    First of all, not everything in Japan is available here. I can’t find Riki-Oh, I can’t find Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer, nor can I find Otaku no Musume-san. Just go down to a roadside stall, or even normal bookstores, and chances are, there’s nothing in sight except for a majority of the shounen stuff, alongside with some other titles from other genres.

    Second of all, shit is expensive here. With our buying power at such a low point, cutting down half a person’s lunch money in this country for something related to an expensive hobby is a real act of determination.

    Third of all, it’s very hard to find a person who is absolutely free from the act of pirating. If anyone who reads this has never, ever, supported piracy in any shape or form, you are either a saint, a bloody good person at controlling your actions, or a bloody hypocrite. Calling people on scanlations or fansubs, when there are worse media to complain about is just absolute bullwankery.

    The problem, however, is the part where pirating does somewhat affect the sales of any sort of product. I’ll confess that I do pirate, but I know my limits and boundaries. If I really do like a product, I’ll buy it to show my support towards the creator. Otherwise, no. Just, no. Money is very weak in this country, compared to other places. I’m pretty sure other well-off people with a bigger source of resources are capable of assisting the industry. But for us guys who have to tie our stomachs for this, just be a little bit more considerate towards our situation (though I’m pretty sure some creators are suffering too, due to how much they receive from their creations).

    (Just in case, Kuro and I are from the same country, along with some of the commenters here)

  19. Dakkar Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 5:10 am

    In this age and time it’s quite naive to expect people to purchase a physical media for something they aren’t going to ever rewatch/re-read. In Japan you can use TV airings and journals to determine what strikes your fancy, the rest of the world has to rely on fansubs/scanlations for the same purpose. Besides, there’s always a matter of certain products never getting licensed, or been released outside of the reasonable time frame.

  20. relentlessflame Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 5:15 am

    Well, you know, while we’re all here being sick of stuff, I’m also pretty sick of the idea that people are taking free scanlations en masse and using them to lure in visitors to their website in order to profit off of the resulting ad revenue. These people neither own the intellectual property, nor did any of the translation/editing work — they ostensibly provide a “service”, but the proceeds they net far exceed any and all costs. Support the publishers, definitely. Pirate stuff, whatever. But why the heck are people shedding tears for the greedy middlemen who are no better than common bootleggers? That is what I personally don’t understand. Even if you don’t think scanlations are a problem, I don’t see how undeserving people profiting off of scanlations can be called “good”. If there’s going to be money made here, I’d rather it goes to someone who has some form of legitimate claim, and not some random guy who started a website.

    That aside, I think the problem isn’t people who post rants like “Support the Fucking Publishers”. It’s people who say “Fuck Supporting the Publishers”. Unfortunately there seems to be more of the latter than the former.

  21. Yue Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 6:11 am

    It really depends on if this rant was directed at the comments made by the 2ch xenophobic, cowardly shut-ins who live on their lunch money their parents give them. Even if you’re a calm person you will rage once you read them.

    But i support your argument Kuro, anime manga in Australia’s like $25AU and that’s like 1,978yen. How much is manga over in japan? like 500yen ?

  22. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 6:50 am

    @Omo: Probably the ONLY WAY to not violate copyrights is to regress in to Stone-Age style living. Way I see it, anything you’d probably do in modern life will probably violate a copyright/patent somewhere somehow. Look at all the patent troll cases in the US!

    @deaky: They really should realize that microtransactions are the way to go. Honestly if there was an official way where I could buy a chapter of manga online for say maybe 50 cents-1 dollar or maybe a subscription-based fee structure, I would probably buy that.

    @Sergio: The industry doesn’t realize that pirated copies aren’t sales lost, they are potential sales unrealized due to various factors (geographical location, pricing, lack of physical copy availability, etc etc.) Steam is a prime example of how to take that unrealized sales and translate them in to tangible profits. I own like 600USD worth of games on Steam now.

    @IWSE: I have a belief that creative works are the collective belongings of all human beings. Shakespeare and Mozart aren’t complaining about their works getting unauthorized reproductions and distributed. Also before you go for the “but this affects the creators livelihood!”, go and read up on how the industry takes advantage of all of them. See: “Hollywood accounting”.

    Also hypocrits aren’t annoying for being right, they are annoying just because they ARE annoying. Presentation is everything.

    @relentlessflame: Sure they make profits for running a service, but they also provide a useful service. If they profit from ad revenue, that’s fine by me, since that’s generally how 90% of the sites on the Internet are focused on. Donations are a different kettle of fish though, I wouldn’t donate to any of those sites no matter how much they beg. Best to get that money in to a real book instead.

    And generally I’m not saying “fuck supporting the industry”, but fuck it if I have to support it ALL THE TIME. Even when it’s pieces of turd. I have a life to pay for outside of anime/manga/games too.

    @Yue: My rant is directed to moralfags in general. Some I even know IRL.

  23. AidanAK47 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 6:54 am

    AMEN.

    I hate it when people say crap like “Support the Fucking Publishers.” They really are just hypocrites. Kuro has a point. God knows if the shop down the street had all the titles I wanted and I had a wallet full of cash then I honestly would buy it all. But I don’t have a wallet full of cash. And the nearest shop that has any decent manga is a four hour drive away.

    Besides, companies sometimes shoot themselves in the foot just because of copyright. Take for example this. A fan translation group that was translating a visual novel was sent a cease and desist order from the company that made it. They then stopped the translation. I ask…..Why? These are people who are translating your game and making it available overseas…..for FREE. It was just a translation patch being offered. You still needed the actual game in order to play it. This would only boost sales and provide no loss seeing as the company itself wasn’t planning to release it overseas anyway. So why?! I mean, honestly. It’s just ridiculous.

  24. Eriker Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:25 am

    Good said! OneManga and MangaToshokan are gone because of this shit! We shall support publishers! One bullet per person =D

    I fell like I should write more, but all what should have been written is already here.

  25. yanipheonu Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:35 am

    I’m a guy who will get any series taht I really like, like I just got all the volumes of Bleach out, and I’ll be getting Bakuman when the first volume comes out, and I think I’ll be getting Negima at the next FanExpo. I woudl prefer if someone with the money and acess would actually buy the manga to support it, but understand that some can’t.

    That said, there has to be someway that publishers can have an actual relationship with the online community outside of shutting down sites and subbers. I really think they should adopt the TV/DVD model.

    Show the newest issues of a manga on a streaming site which are not yet on a published volume, along with maybe the first 2 or 3 issues of a series, to get people reading of course. Depending on how well it does, they could make money off ads, and then make money of printed versions. It’s like how TV series’ make money off ads, but will also release DVD collections.

    The problem for me is that many publishers are nowhere close to where the issues are in Japan. Shonen Jump actually has gotten remarkably close, but still a bit behind. So piracy is a nessitry for anyone wanting to be up to date on their favourite series.

    Ideally, I actually want to see publishers SUPPORTING the scanlators. Make an agreement that the publisher will allow a translation as long as it has specific ads or hast to be hosted on a particular site.

  26. Kyon Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:47 am

    This made me feel a lot better. I mean its just the internet. Nothing to get completely serious about. There are scanlation groups, fansubbers, nipponsei, and other loosely related addresses associated with each other and the shut-down of One Manga. Are they just going to shut down the entire internet system? I’d be damn well pissed if they we had to go into an all-out war with Japan just because we decided to broaden the otaku fanbase. If they do even decide to use over-the-top funds in order to rid the internet of those sites I doubt I’ll be able to watch what will happen next. As it is I’m already in a mentally fragile state due to certain circumstances but fuck me if we end up going to war with Japan in numerous interpretations of war itself.

  27. Dakkar Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 8:16 am

    @Kyon
    I’d like to see how the rights owners are going to shut down IRC-based distribution. And before that they have to deal with filesharing systems like MU, not to mention torrents. Sites like One Manga were adding a bit of convenience, but they’re by no means essential.

  28. shaoron Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 8:47 am

    PREACH IT, BROTHA!!!!

  29. Phuong Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 9:27 am

    Parsee sets a fine example. xD

    But yeah, I can see where you’re coming from and I’m more or less in the same boat.

  30. Phantasm Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:17 am

    It’s pretty late.. let’s say early, over here so to make it short: FU*K YEAH !
    Gotta agree in every point. Best statement in quite some time on this global nonsense network a.k.a. internet.

    Your sleepless German reader

  31. AozuAkazu Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:22 am

    You are awesome. People need to know that if it wasn’t for the internet, anime would be nowhere near where it is now.

    Moralfags. Seems like the kind of person that cuts down a tree and stands on the trunk to speak about conservation.

  32. Glo Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:22 am

    Amen to that! Can I get a hallelujah!?

  33. Maggeh Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:05 am

    Ya know, I believe cheap manga prices are the one redeeming factor of my damnable country. My damnable country being Korea. Here, manga are pretty cheap. Around 10 years ago, they used to range from 2,500 won to 3,500 won, which is around $3, depending on the currency formula. Now, they’re a bit more costly at around 4,000 won… which is $1 more. And that’s with the tax added beforehand, so no need to add complicated numbers at the back of that. On the other hand, the volumes of Yotsuba&!, King of Thorns, Princess Resurrection and so on that I bought cost me $10.99 Canadian each, plus tax.

    Korea (and I believe Japan has something similar as well) actually have businesses based on loaning comics and other books (generally Korean fantasy / martial arts novels) for money. The place I used to go to a while back charged 400 won for like 4 days and 3 nights, but that closed down after some 10+ years of service, so I use another place now that charges the same for 2 days and 1 night. So it’s hella cheap.

    Recently, I’ve been planning on buying some manga (as well as manhwa) in Korean for cheap, so I’ve been surfing an auction site. The prices I get are as follows.
    Volumes 1 ~ 40 of Western Shotgun (Blazin’ Barrels in the West): 19,200 won
    Volumes 1 ~ 27 of Iron Wok Jan and 1 ~ 10 of Iron Wok Jan R: 11,900 won
    Volumes 1 ~ 39 of Kindaichi Shounen no Jikenbo, 6 Special Edition volumes, 1 ~ 9 of Kindaichi Shounen no Jikenbo Season 2 and 2 Extended volumes for a total of 56 books: 29,900 won

    So, all in all, if I do buy, I’m getting 123 volumes for 61,000 won. That’s an average of 495 won per book, which is around 50 fucking cents. Let’s see what would happen if I tried to buy this in the West.

    Volumes 1 ~ 40 of Blazin’ Barrels: Volume 11 came out in 2008 and there’s been no new releases since. Guess I won’t be buying that.
    Volumes 1 ~ 27 of Iron Wok Jan and 1 ~ 10 of Iron Wok Jan R: I managed to buy volume 6 for cheap ($6 Canadian) in a discount pile at one place and 25 for $10 Canadian at another place, and haven’t managed to find other volumes since. I’ve even tried asking local places to order them for me, but they apparently stopped printing the books. Furthermore, Iron Wok Jan R hasn’t even been released in English, far as I can tell. So I’ve got 2 books for $16 plus tax Canadian.
    Volumes 1 ~ 39 of Kindaichi Case Files: Wait, they discontinued this too? Guess I won’t be buying this, either.

    So, all in all, I have got 2 volumes for $16 plus tax Canadian. That’s like $8 plus tax Canadian per book, and I still need to buy some 121 volumes. Well, fuck that, I guess piracy’s the way to go in the West.

    Furthermore, that brings another question. By buying the used volumes from somebody else, am I benefiting the publishers? I’m most likely buying it from somebody who already bought it. It’s not like the publishers are going to be making any money if I buy these volumes, then sell it to somebody else, then so on. Obviously, that’s a moot point, since I plan on keeping ‘em, but it’s something I’ve been wondering about, and I’d be glad if somebody could educate me on how this works.

    Well, I’ve got to go take a driver’s license exam, so I guess this is it for now.

  34. Silver Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:11 am

    I don’t know if I agree with everything but one thing that I think is important is that I hope that at least people appreciate the fact that they are able to get these stuff online for free because I’m starting to meet a lot of people now who does not appreciate that and instead seems to demand that everything must be free and even bitch about it when some publisher send a C&D to some group who was working on it. Hell yeah, I’m upset that a C&D was sent but at the same time, I’m still happy that at least for the time being I was able to enjoy it without paying for it.

    Also, you got to remember that people like us do buy stuff when we really like what we see but there are still quite a bit of younger people nowadays who totally is into this stuff but barely spend a dime buying any of the products beside the bill for internet. People created this products of enjoyment for a living so don’t act like you deserve those products. Be more appreciative of it that you can haha pirate it.

    To be clear, it’s pretty much that since I don’t have enough money, I can’t buy all these stuff but I am still very appreciative that I can enjoy them online for free. I dislike it when people get it for free and are not appreciative of it at all and even a lot of times demand it.

    Anyway, dang it, I’m still feeling down that OneManga is going down. Sure it’s not the best but it’s still pretty decent.

  35. relentlessflame Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:44 am

    @Dakkar:
    The problem isn’t scanlations in general. It’s the fact that these aggregators were/are making hundreds of thousands, and even millions of dollars in ad revenue off of this pirated content. They turned piracy into a viable business model, and that’s when things more than a bit “dicey”. If everything went back to IRC, torrents, and uploader services, I don’t think there’d be anywhere near the same sort of pressure being applied.

    This is why I can’t agree with Kurogane’s statement that it’s “fine” for these people to be making money based on their providing a service. It would be fine for them to make money for providing the service *if* they had the right to offer that service in the first place. That, to me, is the big problem here. It’s no different than selling bootlegs, really.

  36. Guzano Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 12:03 pm

    Right in te spot Kurogane, i´m from Chile and the Mangas are far more expensive than other countries, and ´cause we are soo f*cking away from us and japan, the merchandise is quite expensive and difficult to find. I´ve bought original DVD´s and Mangas, selling my kidneys (joking….), but some people can´t affrord 30 bucks just for one takoubon, or 200 bucks for a complete set DVD, i read scanlations sites, and it´s a shame that for just some f*cking ass morons who just want to make profits with the excuse of “support the writer”, bullshit, the publishers just want cash….it´s a shame that they closing the sites, it´s a real shame….

  37. J3N0V4 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 12:30 pm

    The way the publishers are doing this is all bullshit of the highest order. For one they are taking over 90% of the profits in some cases and giving the original mangaka the finger because they can. They seem to think that shutting down sites like Onemanga will boost their sales but no matter how you look at it they are losing sales this way as they are making enemies in the industry and damaging interest in their products.

    What gives these capitalist pigs the right to overcharge for shit quality then when others are doing better quality for free of things that said pigs don’t own they come down on them with a “greater good” ban hammer that makes no sense or has no true legal standing

    at moral fags in general, get off your high horse and do some research into what your bitching like a little gay girl about, people who say that scantlators are killing the industry are obviously unaware of a time period called before the scantlators which is a time when there was no Manga for the western audience at all. this time came to an end when some guys on the internet had a look and said “shit this is awesome let’s let the rest of the world have a look” and started building interest which lead to some capitalists saying, “look people are getting something of high quality for free, we can’t let that happen” and started to try stopping this from happening by releasing overpriced low-quality version of what was on the internet for free. when this didn’t work you get today which is all you moral fags getting backed by the pigs saying support the original makers which is actually capitalist for give me more money’s.

    GAR!!!!!!!!!!

  38. Danny Zeto Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 12:38 pm

    Hmm. I’m kind of torn. I’m a longtime lurker of this great blog, by the way.

    On one hand, I really understand where Kuro is coming from with his rant. Hell, I’m taking a similar stance to him a regards to anime. If something is worth supporting/buying original for, I’ll do so. However…

    @IWSE: I have a belief that creative works are the collective belongings of all human beings. Shakespeare and Mozart aren’t complaining about their works getting unauthorized reproductions and distributed. Also before you go for the “but this affects the creators livelihood!”, go and read up on how the industry takes advantage of all of them. See: “Hollywood accounting”.

    Being a Web & Graphic Designer, this kind of sting a bit to me. I do spend some money on my tools/software for my design jobs – and as you already know, those ain’t cheap. The copyright rules were indeed in place to protect ‘creators’ – but I agree that there are instances of abuse of it (to the detriment of many) and that these set of Laws should be adjusted/updated accordingly.

    Oh, well. Rock on, Kurogane. Speaking of diminishing buying power, it’s time for my lunch…*reaches for a cheap packet of cold, plain nasi lemak*

  39. Exar Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:19 pm

    I support your argument somwaht Kuro. The reason I read my manga online is because some of the manga I read isnt available in the US. Its too expensive for me to import shit and when I do get money, I do support by buying certain manga that I have yet to finish.
    The only problem I have is waiting 3 months for new releases. If releases on chapters were like in Japan like once a week or once a month then I wouldnt give a dam and totally buy said magazine/manga it were serialized on. But waiting 3 months is just too dam long, hence why i read online. True once its out here in the US (if it all) I will most likely buy it. But untill they find a way to bring it to the US faster, my reading is going to be online.

  40. deburg Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:29 pm

    @IWSE, I think you missed the point – Your murderer is not going around denying that he killed people.

    “THE INTERNET IS STEALING OUR PROFITS!”? Don’t anyone remember that before the internet Publishers were already screaming about evil bootleggers and organized crime? It’s a simple matter of supply & demand, people will go for the cheaper alternatives.

    @Danny Zeto – “Hollywood accounting” – Hear hear! I’ll probably never get to watch the sequel to Forest Gump because of this.

    *just my 2 sens*

  41. Shin Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:38 pm

    Well, I chuckled, if only because I have a good idea how this post even came about and who it is directed to.

  42. Pw3age Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:39 pm

    Hear Hear.

    For fuck sakes, I’ll buy whatever is worthy of my money. I’m not going to buy every fucking manga I read. STFU moralfags. This wouldn’t happen if the publishers weren’t dicks and paid the authors enough money.

  43. Dakkar Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 1:48 pm

    @relentlessflame
    Well, the basic concept of fan translations is that it’s non-profit activity. Not because the revenue can’t be obtained, but in order to prevent the accusations of stealing. Besides, things tend to turn ugly the moment money are involved.
    Still, people are lazy and prone to seek comfort, so aggregator sites are going to be in demand despite any concerns about dirty money. Thing is, the rights owners simply ignore the request even though crynchyroll’s example clearly shows that they can actually earn money where they currently don’t. Of course, they would earn way more if the users buy a physical copy of all the products they watch/read instead of paying a small amount for online access, but, putting the greed aside, something is better than nothing, and nothing is precisely what they get with their current approach.
    If they want to solve the issue, they shouldn’t try and shut down every single aggregator site, that is no different than cutting hydra’s heads one at a time. Instead, they should replace them with a legal reasonably priced option. Weeding out illegal sites makes sense only if they provide an alternative to satisfy the demand.

  44. Sousuke Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:02 pm

    Frankly I find it absurd how Industry has decided “OH LOOK WE DIDNT PUT IT OUT SO THEY’RE GETTING IT FREE AND WE CANT GET MONEY”. God only knows how many countless amazing manga’s and anime’s ive seen for free on the internet only to give the HIGHEST FUCKING PRAISES to all my friends who went out and BOUGHT ALL the dammed anime/manga/novels plus other outside stuff like soundtracks. But no, lets get rid of the potential of marketing through the internet, lets jus nip in the bud the potential for mass marketing through word of mouth.

    Oh while were at it lets just give a bit stickin FUCK YOU to any one that can’t depend on the publishing companies who take YEARS to translate a novel that fansubbers do in months, or a manga that is god only knows how far behind. And since were handing out free fuck you’s to everyone lets go and royally screw anyone thats in a country that doesnt even have publishing rights. I mean holy shit man, I live in the states, and we dont frickin have good manga publications. God there are people in western europe and the middle east who depend on online sites to even read anything.

    Hell if anything all this should convince the production companies to refine whatever the god damm hell there making, be more selective about publishing shitty trash and producing stuff thats so fucking awesome that people will willingly give their money because its so amazing. Of course thats all a moot point if NO ONE KNOWS IT EVEN EXIST, cause DUR HUR WE HAS NO INTERWEBS. It feels like the PR worker who gives out free samples to get publicity and then once the product is well known gets fired because he gave out free samples. Same concept here, the internet was instrumental in spreading anime and manga out of Japan to bigger markets around the world, and now that theyve got their “power base” established its time to remove what made it possible at the cost of tens of millions of fans and potential fans around the world.

    tl;dr
    The companies are sacrificing the future for small monentary gains that even the average joe on the street could see is a bad idea. All thats gonna happen from this is an uproar from the community and either a massive lost of fanbase or an even bigger explosion then before.

  45. Algester Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:05 pm

    I dare say its all down about time and when they start to become competitive <_< ohh yeah not to mention dubs not that im hearing them anyway… ohh have i mention some horrible adaptations… if these criterias are met prolly the publishers will have not problem and that means im looking at tokyopop and Aria when will they ever release the other VOLUMES @_@…. dang…

  46. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:25 pm

    SO JEALOUS~

    But yeah. There’s a big problem, but it’s not because of the tech. Technology has always advanced, regaredless of people’s perceptions of it.

    It’s not helped by the entitlement generation thinking they are entitled to free anime because there’s no enforcement of the Berne Convention (which is badly in need of a revamp itself) and the older fans being disillusioned with the state of things they themselves brought about by directing their hate towards the newfags who are using the Internet to get their animes. (You know who I’m talking about.)

    So how does one propose to fix this impasse?

  47. Haesslich Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 2:30 pm

    DrmChsr0: easy. Sue the customers, destroy the Internet, destroy all ,ong-range communication, restrict any contact between countries, restrict travel to make only between work and home, and then wonder why nobody’s buying animu or manga. ;)

  48. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:14 pm

    @Silver: I do appreciate it. And I show it by buying the latest volumes of manga that I really like when they are out. Of course there are some bastards on the other end of the spectrum that think they are entitled to free stuff, but well, let’s not get in to that because those are a different ballgame.

    @relentlessflame: Any evidence to support those figures? I can hardly believe manga aggregators can earn “millions of dollars” in ad revenue. But then maybe it’s just my AdBlock.

    Anyways I don’t actually agree with them profiting from ad revenue, I just don’t think it’s that viable in the first place to earn enough a profit from just ad placements. If you can support those figures you said, I’d join your side too and demand they release financial statements detailing where the money is going etc. etc (hopefully to buying ACTUAL manga volumes).

    @Danny Zeto: I don’t agree on ripping off the original creators, but at the same time, I don’t believe enough of my money actually goes back to them. I’ve read enough about Hollywood accounting and practices in the industry to make me seriously doubt that even 1 percent of what I spend actually goes back to the creators. Of course it probably does, but the rest goes where?

    @Shin: lol, ;) btw, how goes with your angry parent?

    @DrmChsr0: My idea would be to legalize or create legitimate online readers and streaming sites that employ microtranscation payment models and let volume do the rest. Seriously, profits are in the sales numbers not the percentage cut of the merchandise anymore.

    It’s just too bad it’ll take years to come before the industry realizes this is one of the most viable business models on the Internet. Look at how free MMO’s are thriving!

    @Everyone else: This is not an anti-industry post, more like anti-moralfags post. I do think that as a fan, one should support the industry, but one also should balance it and acknowledge the flaws.

    On the other hand, moralfags should just get their sorry asses off that “high chair” and realise the real world is more than just black and white.

  49. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:19 pm

    SO JEALOUS~

    Hass: I was thinking more nukes fall, everyone dies, but…

    Doesn’t anyone ever try, I dunno, trying to understand the situation?

  50. Danny Zeto Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:38 pm

    Valid points, Kurogane, and a very fair reply to my…um, reply.

    I’m certainly intrigued by your “legalized micro-transaction payment models” idea regarding anime & manga. I definitely would support it, if it ever comes to light. Of course, that’s mighty optimistic of me to believe that’ll happen.

  51. kudos Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:46 pm

    exactly how i feel, including the profanity used to describe :)

  52. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:47 pm

    DrmChsr0:

    Most of the big shots in the industry still follow the oldschool way of sales: book sales. Most of them probably don’t even realize the potential the internet provide. And then there are those who just like the good old ways and are afraid of the new business model.

    Here’s an idea:
    1. Make an official online reader site that serves as a preview.
    2. Show all the story pages but not the bonuses, omake, commentaries and stuff.
    3. Make sure it’s properly translated (at least to english) with no translation loss, especially the jokes and cultural references.
    4. Put up a link for users to buy the actual volume, which will be of better picture quality as well as having the previously mentioned bonuses.
    5. When you’ve make sure that the customers have a comfortable and legal way to enjoy your product, then you can start the witch hunt.

  53. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:51 pm

    @Nestor: It’s amazingly funny that I actually thought of that same idea about two years ago and even recommended it to a local artist as a business model. Too bad it didn’t seem like it amounted to much.

    BTW, said local artist was quite pissed at how his company practically owned all the copyrights to his work and paid him a FIXED salary, regardless of his output/popularity. Sometimes, the industry just doesn’t deserve to be supported.

  54. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:58 pm

    Well the idea WAS based on a project a fellow programmer once did. Of course since the site back then just contains local comics (which predictably isn’t too profitable) and has yet to establish connections with big time publishers and stores, the effectiveness is yet to be seen. Haven’t heard from him for a while, though…

  55. Honoo Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 3:59 pm

    Hmm.

    I’m too lazy to think too hard about these kinds of stuff since I’m not in the most right of my position to even say anything, but the whole ordeal feels to me like this:

    I can’t afford to go and buy a book I want to read. But there’s a library near me which has that book, so I go there and read it there.

    Suddenly the publishers of the book either asks the library to take it down, shut down or face lawsuit because they are losing profits – why? Because everyone goes there to go read that book and not buy from them instead. Everyone, as in from cheapskates to rich bastards who spend like no tomorrow.

    It somehow feels absurd in my opinion.

  56. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 4:01 pm

    SO JEALOUS~

    Nestor: So basically, Steam for anime/manga?

    I thought I mentioned it on my b log already.

  57. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 4:06 pm

    @DrmChsr0: I’m sorry, but I don’t exactly know the details on how Steam usually works (I mostly play games at a friends place, and those are consoles)

    @Honoo: I don’t know if it’s the right analogy, I just remembered that I haven’t been to a library for a long time :((

  58. i0taku Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:29 pm

    HEAR, HEAR!

    All I have to say to those people is; ‘I would if I could, I would if I could.’ How the heck is a UK-based 12 year old anime/manga fan who watches 10-15 series a month going to afford all the merchandise, visual novels, books, boxsets etc. etc. that she wants, not to mention even find somewhere to buy half that stuff?! Some people need to be more considerate and think about the people they’re yelling at before they say anything. >.>

  59. Deviance Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:45 pm

    Question: If it’s really harming the industry as much as those faggots say they are, why are they still there?

    Oh I know, because the fucking industry (atleast in Japan as far as I know) themselves know that all that shit are actually BOOSTING their products. So who exactly is harming the industry?

  60. Shuryou Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:48 pm

    First thing that comes into my mind:

    Subbing and scanning groups made such anime/manga more popular since the release of that anime/manga. Without those groups, I don’t know how anime communities will survive on buying overpriced (imo) english version DVDs or the real manga copies. So think, if those groups were somehow abolished from the internetz, what would happen to the majority of the community who support subbing? I’m thinking the law doesn’t really work against these subbing groups, but like you said, there are those moralfags. Just thinking out loud.

  61. ahelo Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 7:55 pm

    youd have a lot of fun in ANN forums. Everyone there’s a moralfag.

  62. CaptainBright Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 9:36 pm

    @ahelo

    And that is why some of us don’t head there often: It’s filled with white knights and moralfags. And people with a better pay to cost ratio.

  63. Nanatsuya Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 9:42 pm

    ANN is the second worst anime site on the web. Their forums are filled with cult-ish fandom filth of the highest caliber. Just as their writers are obviously sucking off the corporate teat of every company willing to send them freebies, the regulars on their forums eagerly lap up the verbal vomit and beg for more.

  64. Zi Densetsu Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:18 pm

    Amen is all that needs to be said.

  65. relentlessflame Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:39 pm

    @Kurogane:
    As you might expect, the actual amount they’re making from ads is hard to come by. But there was this little comment that came up a few times a few months back: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=926406#926406

    If the people running these sites think they can sell these sites for tens of millions of dollars, there’s certainly something lucrative about it. The simple fact that they *could* “sell the business” and cash-out is, itself, a big problem. If he did sell the company, I’m not thinking any of that money would end up in any publisher’s hands…

    The original article for that thread is also revealing: OneManga alone had 4.2 million uniques and 1.1 billion page views back then. That’s just… staggering. And this for a site, it should be mentioned, that was certainly listing licensed works alongside the unlicensed stuff. When you have that sort of traffic, that’s when the advertising model starts to become lucrative enough to make a difference. Note that not only did they have ads on their site, but I would often see ads for OneManga on *other* sites, which certainly implies that a business model is at play. (Whether ad brokers like Google should permit websites offering illegal content to participate in their ad network is another question…)

    So, anyway… I guess draw your own conclusions. Personally, while I can be sympathetic to individual fans, I have little sympathy for these websites, and I think this whole issue has a lot more to do with the latter than the former.

  66. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 10:57 pm

    SO JEALOUS~

    Nestor: Steam is, in a nutshell, an online game shop. You download and install one tiny program (the Steam console) and you have access to so many games your credit card weeps at the prospect of it getting reamed in the ass. Considering how Steam can get away with their crazy sales, NOT MAKE HALF-LIFE 2 EPISODE 3, and stil rake in a fair profit (people actually pay for this, and thank Steam profusely) while benefitting the developers (there’s a bunch of indie games on it too), while incorporating videos and art (mostly game videos and Penny Arcade), i’s more or less the perfect system for the entitlement generation.

    It’s more or less the perfect system for delivering media of any sort. (Non-DRM, of course. Steam itself adds a lot to the game bloat, so to speak.)

  67. CaptainBright Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:02 pm

    @Nanatsuya

    While I do hate a majority of A.N.N. itself, some of the dudes there like Erin and Mike are still awesome. Zac? Not so much.

  68. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:03 pm

    @DrmChsr0

    Just to clarify, do customers still buy the CD/DVD? Because from what I’ve read big time publishers had a great fear for non-hardcopy product designs, since that would mean that they would have nothing to publish. That’s actually one of the (secret) main issues…

  69. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:23 pm

    Nestor: Well, no, but the system does work.Thing is, there’s no CD/DVD to mess around with. But for some reason, it works. People are willing to pay for the convenience of not having CDs. And I assume it’s a lot of people.

  70. Nestor Said,

    July 28, 2010 @ 11:39 pm

    Well the problem is not with the customer, it’s with the publisher. Like I said, if they do it the Steam way they might as well cease being a publishing company. Unlike game companies, publishing companies are not familiar with softcopy products…

    “4. Put up a link for users to buy the actual volume, which will be of better picture quality as well as having the previously mentioned bonuses.”

    The actual volume is write here means hardcopies. It’s basically a win-win deal; customer can get an overview on the story, publisher still publishes something. Easier to implement on short term than the Steam-style solution

  71. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 12:20 am

    @ahelo: I don’t have enough lives to lose inside that place.

    @relentlessflame: LOL, so that’s the best proof you got? A forum post? Still makes it hard to believe without authenticated numbers.

    IMHO, the numbers prove there is a huge potential market for manga via digital distribution. Tell me, how many percent of the titles available in OneManga are legally English-licensed? Then tell me as well how many percentage of the visitors are from the US. I’ll eat my shoes if both are over 50%. Publishers should instead look at how OneManga’s business model is -actually- successful enough to garner that much hits and learn how to monetize it instead.

    Anyways, I just don’t understand your bone to pick with them about ad revenue. Ads are ads, people click on them voluntarily more or less. Sure OneManga is not exactly a very legitimate example as a ad monetization success story, but people should LEARN from how it’s being done, not crush it down to pieces. From my point of view, you’re just being jealous of them.

    @DrmChsr0: Steam still has a lot to improve on actually, it’s not perfect yet. But it’s got a lot of things going on right and that’s why it is currently the industry’s model to follow. Not to mention they are a company with heart too. Look at the recent fiasco about VAC unfairly banning MW2 players on Steam due to a glitch. What Valve did was not only to fix it, they admitted it, revealed the root cause and GAVE AWAY 2 copies of L4D2 for FREE to each player that was affected. That’s really a lesson for other companies to follow.

    @Nestor: The majority of people who would use Steam don’t really care about hard copies. Steam offers a lot more convenience to offset the lack of hard-copies. But of course they do integrate hard copies with Steam. Any Valve game you buy on the shelf will require a Steam account and they will give you a CD-Key to associate with it. Of course, this means you can’t resell your games, but I’ve never actually regretted that at all.

    In fact, of all my Steam games, I only own two on official hard copies, The Orange Box (gift) and L4D2 (because it was cheaper locally on launch than the US RRP). Also Steam offers you the ability to backup all game data as an image file that you can archive on any media of choice either CD, DVD or external HDD, if you don’t feel like redownloading your games everytime you wipe you PC or move to a different/new one. All you just need to remember is your Steam username and password and keep that safe.

    You won’t believe how convenient it is until you use it. Steam has made me spent more on games in the past 2 years of me using it than the first 17 years of my life before I did. As I said, 600USD worth of purchases from poor lil’ me is proof enough it works.

  72. Nestor Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 12:32 am

    Yes, I believe the steam concept is very convenient…for software distribution. We’re also talking about book publishers, whose main product has always been, well, books. Unlike the software industry, which had a long experience with online distribution (patch, antivirus updates, downloadable contents), the closest interaction book publishers had with the internet is probably amazon style marketing. They had the printing machines as well as other printing stuff already running for long, and suddenly changing to selling e-books requires total system re-engineering which will cost a lot. There must be a transition phase for this kind of revolution…

  73. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 12:36 am

    @Nestor: That’s understandable.

    Problem is, the industry is reluctant to move forward. And really, there’s no such thing as purely book publishers nowadays I would say. Most are already part of media-conglomerates that should be rightly referred to as content publishers.

    All they need to do is really to take the first step and focus on the long-term. But many companies are just too short-sighted or unwilling to take such a big leap in to the unknown without justification towards their investors and stockholders.

    This world needs a revolution.

  74. NovaJinx Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 12:39 am

    @Kurogane

    REVALUSHAN BROTHER! TO THE BARRICADES, MY FRIENDS!

  75. Nestor Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 12:48 am

    “But many companies are just too short-sighted or unwilling to take such a big leap in to the unknown without justification towards their investors and stockholders.

    This world needs a revolution.”

    Yup, I think that’s the main problem: fear of change. Understandable but stupid. Just like the infamous quote “I think the world has room for, at most, five computers” back then. History repeats.

  76. relentlessflame Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 1:17 am

    @Kurogane:
    Well, it is a forum post by the Editor in Chief of ANN, so it carries a bit more weight than “some guy on the Internet”. Because these aren’t public companies, it’s very difficult to get “authenticated numbers”, since no one’s under any obligation to release them.

    Anyway, to the rest all I’ll say is that it’s easy to make money when your licensing costs are zero, you can take all the world’s best content without considering who owns it or has the rights to it, and you get to keep all the resulting revenue. That sort of arrangement simply isn’t possible if you’re trying to do things legitimately, and for pretty obvious reasons. I understand from your previous comments that you have other views as to why this should or should not matter, but it is the situation we’re in at the moment.

    When someone is profiting off of illegally-begotten goods, I would think concern is justified and isn’t a sign of “jealousy”. No matter what, it’s clear that the industry needs to figure out its digital distribution strategy as quickly as possible in order to meet the rather obvious demand. But all I’m saying is that I don’t feel at all sorry for the companies/sites that get put out of business along the way; when your business plan is to make money doing illegal things, you always run the risk of getting caught or shut down. This is totally separate from the argument over whether scanlations are good, bad, or indifferent.

    Anyway, I know you just wanted to rant against moralfags, and this isn’t directly related to that issue in one way or another. But it is, I feel, an important tangential issue that needs to be mentioned as people consider why the industry is beginning to take action now.

  77. Nestor Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 1:31 am

    @relentlessflame: Just because there’s no licensing fee doesn’t mean that there’s no maintenance cost, you know. Especially one to store all those mangas. Until someone show me the exact details on how much of the income goes to maintenance and how much goes as profit, I decline to believe that onemanga and others “reap the benefit without cost” as you imply…

  78. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 1:39 am

    @relentlessflame: Great! I’m glad to see you didn’t get sidetracked and forgot the original purpose of this post. Pretty sure a lot of seem to have mistook me for being anti-industry or something.

    But honestly, I would take anything in a forum post in ANN with a healthy pinch of salt.

    That said, whether it’s morally or ethically wrong for aggregator sites to profit from ad revenue depends on the one’s own beliefs. For one thing, the concept of monetization from ads is pretty much what drives the expansion of Internet content-creation culture, social media marketing etc.etc. If you are condemning them on the basis of generating a profit from ads, then you are condemning pretty much the entire Web 2.0.

    If I start blaming OneManga for profiting from ad revenue, it would just make me a damn hypocrite myself since this blog also depends on ads to survive. And by extension, visitors and commentators to my blog, like you, would also be guilty too if I ‘profited’, isn’t it?

    Ad revenue is one thing, but in the end, aggregator sites like OM and MF aren’t DIRECTLY profiting from putting up scanlations for people to read. And that’s all that matters to me. Sites like Narutofan that CHARGE people for reading FREE scanlations and even stealing them, are the real offenders that publishers should be going after. Those people are scum and there’s probably a special circle in Hell reserved for them.

  79. Haesslich Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 2:41 am

    The issue is also one of control -no matter how much the RIAA claims lawsuits against Napster and file sharers “fixed” the music piracy issue, it was iTunes and the lack of extremely restrictive DRM that did it -and won Apple the music market which resulted in a loss of control. Easy to buy, not tied to a single use on a single device forever… the ability to move files yo our upgraded device without painful steps, and reasonable pricing. All things the music industry and the movie industry are trying to kill, as it affects their scavenger business models.

    The manga publishers and book publishers are afraid of this loss of control over what viewers get, and the loss of the ability to set price and to force you to pay forever for content (manga magazines need this to survive, as tankubon volumes aren’t a constant revenue stream for anyone), which is why they’re on the crusade. Now if they’d gone after the pay sites FIRST, we might actually be targeting the right people…

  80. relentlessflame Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 2:46 am

    @Kurogane:
    To be clear, I don’t think profiting from ads is wrong in the slightest — as you say, so much of the Internet and really media in general is based around that concept. But the reason they get the ad revenue is entirely because of the illegal material they use to attract traffic. I personally don’t think it’s really all that different from the likes of Narutofan; the only difference is in the perception. One party is charging directly for the service, and the other is making money indirectly off the same service. Either way, money is being made off of illegal content. In a weird sort of way, you could almost say that the direct approach is more “honest” — I mean, many people will agree that it’s wrong on the face of it. But in this case, just because it’s indirect, people tend to overlook it and assume it’s no big deal.

    @Nestor:
    To be clear, I’m sure they do have some maintenance costs. What they don’t have are any royalty or licensing costs.

    Really, “storing all those mangas” costs very little, and bandwidth is cheap and constantly dropping in price. Even if you high-ball it, 1.1 billion page views at, let’s say, 400 KB per page at Amazon EC2′s rate of $0.08/GB is around $35,000 in bandwidth. To handle that much traffic they’ll need a small server farm (maybe 10 servers or so?), so I guess add another $10,000/month or so for that. Factor in paying a few people for their time, and let’s say the costs are in the range of $60,000/month. Obviously I don’t know the exact costs, but this seems reasonable given the figures we have.

    Figuring out how much they might be making off of AdSense is a bit tricky, but there are a number of articles like this one (http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/plentyoffish_one_billion.php) that may give a benchmark. The site in that article had 1.2 billion views/month, with 500 thousand unique logins/day, and they claimed to be making $10,000/day off of AdSense. OneManga was at 1.1 billion views with 4.2 million uniques/month according to Google, so a little bit lower, but suffice it to say it should still be significantly more than enough to cover their costs. Even if they were making $5000/day off of ads (half of the aforementioned site), that’d be $90,000/month in profit.

    Obviously, I know those are just estimates and it’s useless without the very facts that are hard to come by. But it does give something to think about, anyway.

  81. Wolfsschanze Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 4:16 am

    dear all,

    i have been a lurker on kurogane’s anime blog, enjoying wholeheartedly the more usual light-hearted posts on anime, but this particular post prompts me to give my own contributions for once.

    do agree w kurogane’s stance on moralfags, but i think that as anime/manga fans in general, it would be better to adopt a more objective perspective with regards to the mechanisms of the industry and maybe explore what is plausible.

    in today’s globalised world, like it or not, we have to face up to the fact that like global-warming, piracy is a collective-action problem, and therefore also one this is unlikely to go away. the invention of the internet in the late 20th century only compounded this phenomenon.

    it’s economics 101 that (just ask horo!) as the price of a product rises, its demand falls whilst its supply rises. it is also a mathematical truism that the revenue from a product equals to its price times its quantity sold. considering the likelihood that the industry survives purely by maximising its profits, it could theoretically profit from this own internet piracy business, namely by:
    1. relying on scanlations, fansubs, music torrents etc. to increase awareness of the original manga, anime, soundtracks, i.e. to increase demand
    2. and then to provide something actually different (or just at least better) from the originals to boost their sales (heck, even lowering their price could count!)
    3. minimzing cost on advertisements by making use of the internet, and even relying upon the active anime blogosphere

    i do think that most of us out here appreciate fansubs and scanlations for giving us at least free previews. we certainly wouldn’t mind buying things we truly like, but neither would we wish to buy crap.

    also, it is not generally plausible to wish for a world where the creators get all the benefits, and no publishers exist. this is because the latter and not the former are experts in their jobs, and it is only because of publishing that these creators can even survive. yeah they do get less of the $$, but it is either that or none, so the choice is obvious.

    lastly, one other point i would like to make is that we shouldn’t see this own issue as a battle between the producers (publishers and/or to a lesser extent, original creators) and the consumers (fansubbers, scanlators, people who read manga and watch anime), for that would lead us to nowhere. nowhere in terms of the interests of the producers (to earn profits and hence by implication to ensure the industry continues), and also the consumers (to enjoy good anime and good manga at reasonable prices, and hence by implication also to ensure the industry continues!)

    sadly to say, some of these suppliers (odex for one) are taking the battle route, issuing C&D etc. i don’t think that is the wise thing to do, maybe because i am a consumer and i do enjoy pirated stuff! nah, but actually because i don’t think it actually helps to stamp out piracy (for it can never be done), and makes people like kurogane (and the thousands others) more pissed off to even contemplate buying their licensed stuff. i would like to end my mini-rant here by acknowledging a point jason miao made on his blog maybe a few months ago. cooperation and not conflict between consumers and producers ought to be the way forward. use fansubs and scanlations to increase awareness of products. actually sell products that have features that cannot be pirated, together with the original piece. use anime blogs to help spread the word. ACTUALLY SELL GOOD STUFF, instead of epic fail-subs etc. then maybe we would see some improvement in the situation. like it or not, publishers AND piracy are not going to go away; we should just find some way of living with each other, or risk all dying out together.

  82. Reason Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 6:23 am

    SPREAD THE WORD PREACHERMAN!

    Anyway, if you make a good comic be it manga or otherwise, you’ll drag attention. If it’s good (as in you’ve got some serious content going and can churn out at least a couple of updates a week (even if it’s just a single page)) you can easily get 100k+ unique readers a month (I’m talking bare minimum here – and a one man operation > it would scale perfectly well with more people). . If you keep it up you can live perfectly well off merchandise and ad revenue. And that’s without actually having an intelligent business plan.
    I swear to the heavens that there’s not a single manga currently being scanlated that couldn’t thrive on this business model. And sure, you can throw up that few webcomics can supportive themselves, and that’s true, but very few webcomics are consistent with their updates, have decent art or ‘give it their all’ (mostly it’s just an untalented tech kid’s sidejob). The ones who try their best can survive and usually those haven’t even got professional drawing experience. If professional mangaka give it a shot they could certainly pull it off. And frankly, from what I’ve read, the majority of them aren’t all that wealthy (understatement much). So a ‘slow start’ shouldn’t be that much of a brick wall.

    People all over the world spend hours traversing the web in search of entertainment. When they’re not giggling at silly webcomics or hot-blooded anime shows they’re doing their serious office jobs and raking in dough by programming shitty neural nets (yours truly). Their time is valuable so they choose the places they spend their time at wisely…as such those places gain value and it’s perfectly possible to monetize off of it.

  83. CaptainBright Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 9:54 am

    Seriously, at this point, I’m just waiting to see whether this post can ever reach triple digit status only.

    Instead of flaming moralfags and white knights, this has turned into a industry based discussion. Next thing you know, Kuro starts flaming Bleach or heaven forbid, curses Negima, the comments in here might even rival that of sites which criticise Final Fantasy 13……

  84. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 1:32 pm

    @CaptainBright: Unlikely, judging from the pace now. And it’s inevitable this will turn in to an industry-based discussion, since that’s the elephant in the room right now. At least this is a very polite and constructive one.

    Also, it’s easy for me to do a flame post and attract a few hundred angry fans. I just don’t want to sink to that level of faggotry.

    @relentlessflame: Well that’s because it’s pretty much a legitimate revenue stream despite the legality of the content of the site. Web advertisers usually don’t even care what the site is doing, as long as it gives them enough clicks.

    In the end, ad revenue is still revenue that isn’t directly tied to whatever content the site hosts. So I will respectfully decline to admonish and condemn free manga aggregator sites on the basis of them profiting from ad revenue.

    @Wolfsschanze: Your comments are very valid. In the end, all these boils down to the fact that the industry is slipping behind the technological advances and losing a golden opportunity to leverage on the Internet’s strengths.

    Instead, they take a combative approach that not only pisses off their customers, but also the creators as well. While it’s not as publicised as much as in the West, but there have been rumblings over the past few years of how publishers mistreat manga-kas and the abysmal wage scales of animators are pretty much an open figure.

    What I would really like is that the industry gets a heart and use a little bit of common sense to not just only treat their customers (potential or existing) right but give a fair compensation to the creators as well too!

  85. Haya Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 2:32 pm

    I love you.
    That attitude irks me a lot. I totally agree with you on everything you’ve said. Also, I read scanlations because, if that 60% of scanlations don’t have an English market, I’m pretty sure that like 15% are available where I live. The only manga I usually read that is translated into Spanish is Naruto, and it’s really behind. Everything else is completely unknown here. If I like something and if, miraculously, it is available here, I’ll buy it. I’m slowly but steadily getting my volumes of “Monster”. I’m currently, halfway done. And those 9 volumes are worth the money. That’s how I “support the industry”.

  86. DrmChsr0 Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 3:05 pm

    SO JEALOUS~

    Nestor: Again, yes, video games and published works may differ in some aspects, but I don’t see how the Steam model can’t be tweaked to benefit everyone. It’s only a matter of tea, crumpets and a good talk. That is, if everyone were to be like this comments thread, thing.

    Regarding ad revenue: Hey, at least OM and MF don’t explicitly lie about where their manga came from, UNLIKE EBAUMSWORLD DOT COM. It’s also how your TV shows work, in principle.

    Regarding the industry: Speaking of which, I haven;t heard from Chuang Yi in a long, long time. Not drawing attention, asking the fans at one point what to license, and NOT GOING ON THE WARPATH…

    I wonder what happened to them. (And yes, that a SINGAPORE company).

  87. ahelo Said,

    July 29, 2010 @ 6:40 pm

    @kurogane
    HAHAHA. I actually have fun laughing at those ANN twits

  88. Fluffy Said,

    July 30, 2010 @ 9:01 pm

    You summed up my feelings in a nutshell.
    I buy what manga I like even though it puts a strain on my wallet. But, I can’t pay for every manga series I read online. That would put a strain on my wallet.

  89. Rockmanshii Said,

    July 30, 2010 @ 9:39 pm

    I love you Kurogane , You always manage to sum up all the info on the net about this “support the pubishers” etc blablabla shit and tell us the truth about it.And fast.I totally agree.

  90. Blacksun88 Said,

    July 31, 2010 @ 12:10 am

    yes!! you had voiced out everything we wanted to say correctly and accurately. fuck them!!

  91. neko Said,

    July 31, 2010 @ 4:50 am

    i agree with you 100%. fuck yea

  92. OverMaster Said,

    July 31, 2010 @ 11:15 am

    *Claps a lot crying fucking streams of fucking manly tears*

    YOU, SIR, ARE GREAT. I WILL LOVE YOU FOREVER.

  93. updatedude Said,

    August 1, 2010 @ 2:11 am

    Consider this:

    I read scanlations of Yotsuba. Now, putting aside the fact that I doubt Yotsuba will ever get a decent official English release here, my point is this:

    Because I read and like Yotsuba, I bought both Yotsuba Revoltechs. Because I friggin’ loved the Danbo chapter, I also bought the Danbo Revoltech.

    I admit, I’m probably not a guy who’ll buy official manga unless it’s a) in English and it’s well done English to boot, and b) I already really like the series. BUT, insofar as the property is concerned, I probably spend more than I would, if I had just bought the series proper.

    A related example, I’m probably not going to buy any Nanoha DVDs, but heck, I’ve got the Figma Signum, Vita, GaoGaiGar-tan, Nanoha, Fate and Hayate. Between them, I’ve spent far more on the property than if I just bought the DVDs for the immensely boring StrikerS.

    So I’m not against scanlations, simply because in all honesty, the people who “steal” them simply don’t have the income to buy them anyway. And those who do have the income, wouldn’t necessarily have access to them. Or heck, if I didn’t get certain series for “free”, I wouldn’t have become a fan willing to dish out big bucks for the merch.

    Unless there’s a study, or at least a poll done to assess how much revenue is actually lost as a result of scanlations and other free media, it’s hard to sympathize, despite knowing that we’re sorta on a legal edge.

  94. riddlekiller Said,

    August 2, 2010 @ 8:33 am

    Well, they dont let us read manga online, nobody would fucking hell no their manga, popularity goes down. AND TOKYO POP i am so not going to buy your 20 over dollars manga, whoes translation isn’t that good and releases so fucking slow.
    Even the chinese versions come out faster than Tokyo Pop.
    One piece grossed out 53 million us dollars even before it came online. One piece is the most popular manga out there, why? BECAUSE IT CAME ONLINE and people could follow the story, thus continuing the anime, thus buying the products, thus letting the producers earn more money. You don’t release your products on the web, you lose out big time. I know of people who check the manga out on the web first before going to buy the manga itself. So stupid people who wanna license and remove, seriously man, their losing out a lot.

  95. Cho_Hakkai Said,

    August 6, 2010 @ 12:31 am

    I really hope that this will not become the 2nd Odex (Xedox) saga where it made almost everyone going underground and stop supporting the industry.

    In Singapore, Odex had totally stop producing (translate) the anime in DVD after all the anime fans boycott or picketing by not buying a DVD that come from Odex. This is what one of the blooger commented after the AFA09 event.

    “The anime community in now growing at a healthy pace but most of them are going underground due to Odex saga.

    As for me, I’ll really buy the product if I really like it as I’m also not rich at all. I also waiting for “Open Manga” to officially start operating. I also almost subscribe to Crunchyroll by supporting the legal way but there are too many restriction from watching the anime in that website. So, that is the push off for me in that website.

  96. ryvrdrgn14 Said,

    August 9, 2010 @ 8:32 pm

    Watch their merchandising sales and popularity drop off a cliff after they push to block all scanlated/fansubbed content off the internets.

  97. minakomel Said,

    December 8, 2010 @ 7:38 pm

    AMEN BROTHER T_T
    may I give you some advide? stop reading ANN, it will only make you sicker. You should rely on other sources of infomation.

  98. theSU Said,

    January 13, 2011 @ 12:28 am

    yeah, what you said.

    I buy DVDs and manga of stuff I like, but a) not everything I like is available in my country and b) without scanlations and whatnot I wouldn’t even buy anything, because $30 for 3-4 eps of something I don’t know if I like it… a bit expensive

RSS feed for comments on this post