It strikes me that the best end possible at this point is for Tomoyo to die heroically in the next episode, saving someone’s life. Then he’s met in heaven by Nagisa and Ushio, where they live (?) happily ever after.
How can you think of hooking him up with Kyou or Tomoyo blahblah…etc when you see his daughter dying in his arms. Have you no sensibility? I know its an anime, but still to think like that when the poor guy lost his wife ( the only girl he really loved from this show) and his daughter.
indeed mi brother …. indeed.
he really loves nagisa [even after ... well .. u know wat happend] and ushio, and u guys r talkin about tomoya havin another girl to be with him …. u guys dissapoint me …. u know …. HE JUST LOST HIS CHILD AFTER LOOSIN HIS WIFE ! …
[anyway, if it goes like the novel, he dies and then we will have a deus-ex-machina and everybody will be happy again ..... nagisa and ushio included]
sorry for the lil spoiler but, u guys know this will happend after this ep, so ….
though I don’t feel bad for Tomoya one bit – delinquents like him (both on an intellectual and emotional level) never deserve any happiness.
Ushio, on the other hand – oh, that poor girl! She doesn’t deserve this – she deserved some real parenting. I pity her for having a father like Tomoya (it took him – what, 4 or 5 years? – to realize that his daughter really needed him? Some kind of father he his…)
By siding with Tomoya, you’re approving his poor social skills, conceited personality, and inability to make his daughter happy.
I would say that you have issues. Either that, or you’re too blind and ignorant to see the truth. Ushio is so angelic that she forgives her father for neglecting her for at least four years. If it were any other child in a realistic situation – Tomoya would already be in jail – just like his daddy.
You go Olivia. Well said.
Tomoya is so anime and so real in the same time that you can’t make a judgment on him. He was lost, only natural, because it happens in real life heaps time, yet he came back the way he was suppose to be. And he is not that much of a delinquent to be real, he had that reputation and yeah he did get into fight but mostly for good reasons. Would a delinquent have treated Nagisa so kindly from the first time. Tomoya always had an amazing heart. Where is the Tomoya fandom dang it? He deserves one, not only criticism.
@olivia: You are being overly judgmental on Tomoya here. So he was a delinquent at school, does that mean he failed in life?
Tomoya’s only mistake would be that he loved too much and therefore lost himself when his loved one died. But even so, he managed to recover from it. I salute his strength of character for that.
I do not see why he doesn’t deserve happiness. I believe inherently that everyone has a right to pursue their happiness. Why should we deny Tomoya that on the basis of him being a “delinquent” in the past? It’s not like he was a wife-beater or murderer.
I don’t need to. You being a self-righteous judge is enough to make me laugh.
>> By siding with Tomoya, you’re approving his poor social skills, conceited personality, and inability to make his daughter happy.
Where did you see I was siding with him? Losing child and wife is a tragedy that no one should wish for anyone because LULZ HE WAS A DELINQUENT!
He was on the way to make up for the lost years and repent. But SURPRISE, Ushio dies!!!
>> I would say that you have issues.
>> Either that, or you’re too blind and ignorant to see the truth. Ushio is so angelic that she forgives her father for neglecting her for at least four years. If it were any other child in a realistic situation – Tomoya would already be in jail – just like his daddy.
That’s the difference between watchers like you and me. You are all so hell-bent on projecting what would YOU be doing instead of what Tomoya would be doing.
Protips: Tomoya’s conduct is not dictated by cold logic and reason as shown in the previous episodes.
I LOVE this show! It has been the only anime I have ever bawled my eyes out watching. The whole series has been a tear jerker. I’ve been watching anime for quite a while and so far Clannad is my favorite(it’s actually a tie with Bleach. I still looove that show!). There is so much depth and plot twists that it always keeps me wanting more. I never want this show to end, but alas, all good things must come to an end.
I stated “being a delinquent on an emotional and intellectual level.” I’m not talking about his high school career. He doesn’t have the maturity level or the stability to become a husband or a father – and yet he chose both of these factors. I call that selfish.
Tomoya knew perfectly well that Nagisa’s body wouldn’t withstand childbirth, and yet he agreed to let her keep the baby. If I were her husband – I would persuade her until my death to not to let her have the baby until her body is strong enough to go through it. Again – selfish.
And after four or five years, he goes – “ah, so sorry, didn’t realize the pain you were in – my bad.”
Do you think that any man could just repent like that after at least four years of neglecting his child – just because of the death of his wife which could have been avoided? (in real life terms, since I know this series gives Nagisa some incurable disease just so Key can have a story)
I’m not OVERJOYED that he lost…what was it that Tomoya said in the series? – “the people that ONLY he could protect,” I just felt like he deserved it – because he didn’t deserve the angelic-ness of Ushio and Nagisa.
“He was on the way to make up for the lost years and repent. But SURPRISE, Ushio dies!!!”
It wouldn’t have been a surprise if he looked after her since her birth.
“That’s the difference between watchers like you and me. You are all so hell-bent on projecting what would YOU be doing instead of what Tomoya would be doing.”
No: I’m simply stating what should have been done on moral standards. But yes – there is a difference between you and me – you’re so emotionally touched by his story that you don’t realize the pathetic-ness and the conceit in his character -while there are those who can see beyond that.
“I don’t need to. You being a self-righteous judge is enough to make me laugh.”
That’s not an adequate reason for saying that I issues . You have no right to JUDGE me if that’s the only reason you can come up with. And if you say you do – you’re being hypocritical. But let’s keep personal remarks out of this conversation.
“Tomoya’s only mistake would be that he loved too much and therefore lost himself when his loved one died”
Love too much? Too much? Too much to neglect his child because his wife died indirectly by his hands? Too much to ignore the reasons not to have a child until his wife got physically stronger? Give me a break.
“I believe inherently that everyone has a right to pursue their happiness”
I believe that too.
“To me, it sounds like you want to wipe out the working class”
No – I just want to wipe out the class of people whose ignorance takes a toll on other people (like their children or wives, for example)
It was Nagisa’s choice and Tomoya’s love for her that let her keep on carrying on her pregnancy. You are AGAIN trying to FORCE YOUR view on how things should be done, just like many people on blogs and internet forums have been doing.
On Tomoya and his choice of being father and husband
Let’s tell that to everyone who choose to be parent and married too early. Is life going to suck for them? Maybe. Are we going to point and laugh at them? No.
Life is made of trial and errors. Another thing is that humans MATURES and learns all the damn time, how quick and slowly depends on the life experience and the personality. But this results from the choices that a man makes.
“Tomoya’s love for her that let her keep on carrying on her pregnancy”
Okay, I guess you’ve just ignored everything I just wrote. If Tomoya loved her, and I mean truly LOVED her – he would have stopped her from having the baby until she was stronger. Simple as that. If Nagisa were to have a choice that she was going to jump of the river tomorrow – would Tomoya have agreed because it’s Nagisa’s choice? Surely not. And yet – he agreed to this pregnancy – which would eventually bring Nagisa to the same place if he had let her jump into the river – just later (and in a more painful setting). Tomoya knew perfectly well of his wife’s lack of strength; he’s not retarded, and if he really cared about her health – and I mean REALLY CARED, he would have stopped her – or at least waited. This is not my point of view. This is common sense. (Have the baby and die now, or wait and give birth when your body can take care of it) – not a hard choice to make when it’s written, isn’t it?
“I’m proud to announce that you are now officially one of the most bigoted commenters I’ve ever had. Congratulations! ”
Are you so immature as to make a personal remark when you have nothing else intelligent to rebuke my argument? Being a high school student, I find that rather disappointing.
But to answer your question – only when he’s a) yelling at people b) killing his wife without knowing it because he wants to “respect her decisions”, c) neglecting his angelic daughter, d) crying when he realizes how pathetic his life has been and whining about it, e) saying cheesy motivational lines to himself when he, again, realizes his pathetic life, or f) being nosy (which is how he got himself into this whole mess in the first place… mm, go figure) But besides that, I think he’s a fine’old lad.
“Life is made of trial and errors. Another thing is that humans MATURES and learns all the damn time”
God bless you-I totally agree. But having your life experiences and “trials and errors” impact and hurt the lives of others is NOT okay.
On a totally unrelated note – do adults age in this anime? Our dear old Sanae looks like a 17 year old high school virgin when she’s, like, a grandmother O_O. And she’s coping better than Tomoya when she has taken care of both Nagisa and Ushio longer than him. Respect, respect.
You believe in the right to pursue happiness? Then I ask you, do you have something against Tomoya or something? He pursued his happiness, reached it but lost it…
And then you say he deserved to lose it and he didn’t deserve Ushio and Nagisa… What gives you the right to say what he does or does not deserve… You say people have no right to judge you, yet you judge people like Tomoya… What gives you the right? What’s the difference between people whom you called hypocrites and yourself…
Tomoya agreed to have Ushio because he asked Nagisa about her wish. It was Nagisa’s only wish and he promised to fulfill it and you say he was selfish… If your loved one has only one wish and you were not able to fulfill it
You say you would persuade her till your death… What makes you think Tomoya hasn’t tried persuaded her? He did try to discuss the pregnancy with her but Nagisa can be stubborn at times too… She already insisted on having Ushio and did not change her mind knowing the risks she is faced with…
And also if Nagisa did not have Ushio, gotten stronger and became pregnant again, what makes you think that this would not happen again? Knowing her medical history(incurable disease of not), there is a high chance that complications during pregnancy will repeat itself except this time she would have the trauma of having had a miscarriage, an abortion or a stillbirth… Depression would be inevitable and would lead to an unhappy marriage… Just to let you know, Tomoya’s decision is not the only thing that lead to Nagisa’s death… The weather played a part in it too in addition to the illness and the premature labour… Do you think that you would be able to prevent her death?
And he did not intentionally neglect Ushio… He left her in the care of great people to raise her while visting her… Also would you be able to look at your child, whom your wife died giving birth to, without seeing an image of your wife while reliving the painful memories of losing her? It would be easy to give an answer now but when you actually experience it, would you be able to act according to your “moral standards” and ignore all emotions? Also Tomoya realized what he did was wrong to Ushio over the 4-5 years and learned from it… As a result he reconciled with both his father and his daughter… People make mistakes. Its a fact that makes us human. Its also how we learn, as long as we realize it not too late.
You say that he is crying about his “pathetic life” saying cheesy motivational lines, well at least he’s still alive despite the hardships he faced… Most people would have offed themselves halfway… Its easy for you to give all these judgments on Tomoya or people like him without actually experiencing the life they’ve gone through… Try giving the same answers when you are in their shoes and see how difficult it is…
@SinSnakeZ – My respects and free hugs. Couldn’t have said it better.
I don’t wish for anyone to actually go through such a thing. only try to put yourself in his shoes without the morality and just with the emotion. A broken heart, grief, sadness, can make you do crazy stuff that you latter regret. Most men wouldn’t try to make things better, they would just go through life trying to forget, yet Tomoya tried to fix everything, that its the most important thing.
@olivia: I honestly find that your blaming of Tomoya for Nagisa and Ushio’s death extremely insulting. It’s like blaming the butterflies in China for causing Hurricane Katrina (read: Chaos Theory etc).
Your preaching of “Tomoya should’ve stopped Nagisa from carrying their child until she was stronger” is all fine and dandy except for the fact that Nagisa’s “disease” was uncurable and seasonal to boot (notice how she gets worse nearing winter every year?). There was absolutely no guarantee Nagisa would’ve become stronger, even if she aged. Nagisa took a very brave decision to carry their child, despite knowing of all the risks she was undergoing and you are literally spitting on that very brave decision she took.
And you blame Tomoya for leaving Ushio behind for five years with Sanae and Akio, but honestly, he made the right decision, in many aspects.
I think you’ve lost sight of the point that Key is trying to make with CLANNAD, which is the “importance of family”. A family is a special bond. No matter what mistakes you do or whatever hardships and suffering you go through, your family will always be there to support you. That is what CLANNAD is about, not about “making the right choices”.
Ponder about that, and in the mean time, go rewatch the series again. You seem to have lost sight of something important after watching it until this far.
Besides, it’s pretty pointless to argue about Tomoya being “wrong” and “undeserving of his wife and child” when Key is gonna pull the mother of all deus-ex-machina’s next week.
Why so serious!?
all i can say is… you’re over analyzing a lot of stuff and being very judgmental…
Whether this whole thing was Tomoya’s fault or not… it doesn’t matter. Yes, we know Tomoya has a lot of faults, abandoning his daughter for 4-5 years is a real ****, but that’s not the point right now… this is a tragedy, first Nagisa died, then now Ushio? if he was a real person and you said that, to his face or not, you’re just being insensitive…
Now… would you like me to put a NICE BOAT SMILE ON YOUR FACE!? :D
^(j/k on this last sentence)
as for sanae, again…
*points back to that episode where Sanae wore Nagisa’s school uniform*
nuff said :p
,,, you’re just being insensitive. It’s like a guy somehow ended up getting a faceplant on the road (because something happened, maybe his fault or not, could be becuase he wasn’t feeling well, etc), and instead of helping him, you go over and say out loud why he’d trip, he’s an idiot, and repeatedly kick him (in the groin, maybe?) while he’s down.
“do you have something against Tomoya or something”
I’ve already answered this question.
“What gives you the right to say what he does or does not deserve…”
When you watch the Lion King or Cinderella and unconsciously want Scar or the Evil Stepmother to perish – that’s judging too. A story’s characters are meant to be judged – that’s why they’re given a personality. You can’t be serious when you think that me judging a 2D character and you judging me are on the same grounds. Besides, the audience (including me, obviously) has been observing him since episode 1 of season 1. I absolutely have the right when I have been viewing this series for this long. Others do not have the right to judge me because they have not known me.
“It was Nagisa’s only wish and he promised to fulfill it and you say he was selfish”
Her wish? Her WISH? なに?!?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously, reread my posts.
Why so serious?
You wouldn’t believe that I’m actually smiling when I’m typing this
which is the “importance of family”
Yep – and the importance of setting a good example for your daughter
“Nagisa’s “disease” was uncurable and seasonal to boot”
I’ve already addressed this in a disclaimer above.
“You seem to have lost sight of something important after watching it until this far.”
I actually watch this series because I care about what happens to every character except Tomoya (and Kotomi Ichinose, but that’s another discussion) – he’s seriously the least amusing character in this series – except when he’s being a pedophile (which was actually funny)
“Key is gonna pull the mother of all deus-ex-machina’s next week”
“you’re just being insensitive”
Dude, I wouldn’t be having a debate about this if I were…
“Try giving the same answers when you are in their shoes and see how difficult it is…”
Ohoho~ I was waiting for this. Well, not really – but still…
you seem to presume that I live in a mansion in Beverley Hills or Mars or some place with a dad being a CEO and a mom being a slave to my happiness and education. I actually had a childhood like very similar to Tomoya’s/Ushio’s. Dad = jail at age 10, mom = was an alcoholic and still is, probably – have been living w/ my grandparents for the past two years. And yes – I have watched a relative die.
People (and anime) always seem to magnify things like this – children and teens like me actually have better adaptation skills than people of any other age: a survival skill. Once I understood that my life is solely dependent on how hard I work, and my happiness on the friends that I make – things become 99% easier. There’s no emo crap that Tomoya has been giving us since last year.
One thing that has always bothered me is – Tomoya knew perfectly well that he’s 1) failing high school, and 2) perfectly capable of doing better… why did he never study hard if he wants to prove society wrong about people like him? (or, if he has no interest in academics – at least focus on something he’s already okay at – like baseball)
>> This is why I always suggest actually playing the Clannad game. A visual novel usually forces you to BECOME the protagonist, or at least to understand his way of thinking.
That’s what some people seems to fail to realize when watching Clannad. Clannad started AS Visual Novel. A genre in the video gaming that share a lot of similarities with the Choose Your Own Adventure books. They are not tabletop pen & paper RPGs, as in you do not have the freedom to choose how your avatar should act. While the book says “You”, it’s actually the protagonist with its own personality and past acting within a limited script. So, when you are reading Lone Wolf (awesome adventure boos series by the way), you are Lone Wolf, not Jiro, Jean or John in Lone Wolf world.
Those who succeed the most or stay in memories are the ones who have gone beyond carboard projection of the reader in a fantasy world, not just Lone Wolf, but also Shiki Tohno, Shirou Emiya and Tomoya Okazaki.
tl:dr stop projecting your mindset on the protagonist. It’s not going to work that way.
Cmon guys you can’t ignore the fact that Tomoya’s actions were not the best options .. Didn’t you think like “dont let her stay pregnant!!” “dont leave ur child!!” “dont let your daughter get out at this cold” etc.. while watching?? Personally i did.. you know the “if I were him” situations..
I personally wouldn’t let nagisa die.. even if i did, i wouldn’t abandon my child.. etc..
I kinda agree with olivia here..
You know also in the anime, Tomoya himself was keep saying “If I wasn’t in their lives, they would be happy” etc..
Try to be objective ^^
It amazes me to read some of these comments on what people would and wouldn’t do if they were in these situations. Its great that a story can make you contemplate your own situation or empathize with others.
One thing people forget is that hindsight is 20/20. That means its easy to look back on someones history and say, “oh you should have done this or that” especially when you know the outcome. Making mistakes sucks, but its part of life. Losing a wife is something I cannot even fathom, nor do I know how I would honestly feel if that happened to me. If it caused me to become a husk of a person for years on end, I would hope to god that I had somebody as awesome as Tomoya has to take care of my child during those dark times. It just seems very harsh to be so critical of him during this stage, but thats the joy of people having different opinions.
As for the birth, well, there are many people who help shape a decision like that. The mother has the biggest say in the matter. There are always risks, but Nagisa knew them and wanted to continue on. What is Tomoya suppose to do, punch her in the gut? If he forced her, there would be resentment there for taking away what she really wanted and that would open up a host of other issues.
As much as people argue there is NO perfect answer to any problem life gives us. Trying to find the best way is all we can do. If you dont agree with something some one does or says, that’s fine, but realize its not your choice, it was theirs.
Also, I cant watch this anime right now, I had to stop a few weeks ago after Nagisa’s death. I have to wait until it is finished then I can watch the tour de force all at once and get that ending to wash away that sadness.
After Ushio died, Tomoya followed suite due to depression. The Imaginary Girl and the Garbage Doll collected all the orbs from Tomoya. The girl uses the orbs to grant the wish that Nagisa lived through the pregnancy and Ushio wasn’t born with the disease.
I had left the series with an overwhelmingly depressing feeling because I made the mistake of watching both seasons back to back and finishing that off with the sob-story of the movie. That movie was like a knife through the heart. I’ll admit that I cried, too much so in my opinion.
INSIGHT! I figured out who the girl in the sailor jumper at the beginning of the end credits is (though I’m sure someone else has already done so). It’s Ushio!!! Just watch it and you can tell.
I believe that the robot was Tomoya and that the orbs in the “ended world” were indeed Tomoya’s because they were the orbs of his happy memories. The Roboya (lol for originality) had lost its memories that were now floating around everywhere. I’m not positive, but I thing the mysterious girl in the ended world could have been Nagisa, who had also lost her memories and had waited for 5 to 6 years for Tomoya to arrive, though her innocent form could neither have understood why nor whom would inhabit her mechanical creation. I believe that the girl in the white dress might be Nagisa because of Roboya’s goal to fly to the mountains and that a happier world was awaiting them their. Those mountains symbolized 5 to 6 years before the end of Tomoya’s world, when Ushio died. If Roboya could take the idealized Nagisa back to that moment (the moment of Ushio’s birth) he subconsciously knew that it would lead to something better. As I write this it is hard to comprehend my own theory of Roboya’s implicit drive to get the girl away from the shack while he was devoid of all the memories and knowledge needed to validate such a goal. But I belive that is what happened. I hope I wrote it in a way that made sense.
Now that I re-watched episode 23 of season 2, I feel much better about the whole affair. Whew. What a relief. I remember watching 23 for the first time and giving it a raised eyebrow for about four straight minutes as Tomoya remembered the world that had ended and its sad events, luckily my eyebrow was correct in that the story wasn’t real, at least not anymore.
[Code Geass SPOILER]
I wish that Code Geass R2 had such a compilation episode. One that made everything ok.
Lelouch took C.C.’s code before being stabbed by Suzaku and therefore survived!!!