And I thought pimp Sunohara was bad enough… the Internet hasn’t failed to prove me wrong yet. Admitedly, Sunoko is… is… cute.

There! I said it! I-i-i-it doesn’t mean I wanna do it with him! O-o-o-okay?!! D-d-don’t m-m-misunderstand me! I j-j-just thought it was c-c-cute, that’s all!


  1. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 10:17 am

    Kurogane: Volleyball… wo yaranaika?

    Of course, Shirashi HAD to wear the “Yaranaika” tie during the Live Action Lucky Channel at the end of the OVA. Unfortunately, we got too much whiny Akira, and not enough psycho-mode.

  2. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 10:20 am

    … ah yes, and I can link the live on-stage “Volleyball o yaranaika?” bit that Daisuke Ono did during the Minami-ke Live, complete with opening his shirt and rubbing himself. Ah, but the cheers from the audience and the comments from the Minami family seiyuu was… enlightening.

  3. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 10:21 am

    Haesslich: For the life of me, I can’t remember what post that you’re talking about. A search of my archives only show one Minami-ke post and the Lucky Star OVA one. Are you referring to the OVA one?

    Also, I’m still reading your essay-length comment.

  4. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 10:49 am

    I’m so glad I didn’t stick around the NGE fandom for THAT.

    Kurogane: I’d have sworn “Volleyball wo Yaranaika” was around here SOMEWHERE – I think it got posted about around the period when Ren’ai Blogger had been released, or was a post of its own.

  5. RmX Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 11:10 am

    @Haess: I’ll respond to my part.

    The problem I have with you bringing in traps is the connotation that the word genderbending presents. Our usage of the term “genderbending” is the creation of an entirely new character that is derived from the base design and personality of another. It is not the literal changing of a character’s sex to the other, which is the material typically presented in doujins and portrayed with comedy and confusion in stories like Ranma and To-Love-Ru. Seitenkan does not use genderbending as an active part of the plot, only as a means to present stories from a different perspective.

    And I guess my question to you should be: “Why are you so concerned with Seitenkan being more than just a thought experiment?” It’s obviously more than just a joke at this point, and at least for Haruhi, has a created a sub-fandom within the original Haruhiist base. You can’t expect the same kind of success as has been achieved with the Haruhi movement, but I certainly have nothing against trying to genderswap any series that you can think deserves a shot. If someone can make a genderbent DBZ work, I will worship that person forever.

  6. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 11:48 am

    Haesslich: You have NO idea just how much Doug Weeks and I are enjoying that one. We’re both debating if we should get Axel and Alain in for the fun.

    It’s like Code Geass written by a Sunrise screenwriter on ACID; it’s so bad, you know it’s already hurtled off the rails, but you CAN’T LOOK AWAY… And yet it has its moments of brilliance. Too bad it looks like it’s killed off Mayumi when the author nuked most of NERV US…

    Now, back to the topic. It’s interesting how much, well, thought you’ve put into the argument, frankly. Very compelling observations, but it really makes me wonder if you’re taking something that, even I admit, is a fun diversion that’s gotten out of control (still fun though depending on the dosage) too seriously.

    Kaisos has a point — the Genderflip in Haruhi isn’t really that much of a paradigm shift as it is a storytelling device (and give the fans something to digest while Kadokawa baits them). Would it really change things for the chromosonal pairs to switch in the characters? Surprisingly, I’ve found that, gender expectations aside, very little changes in the story. I don’t think that Fujiwara would be any less of a jerk as a girl than as the smiling bastard that he is in the novel, for example.

  7. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

    Using Genderflips as a story device is not much of an excuse, admittedly… Because the same case could be said of using character death as a plot engine as well. That is why at this point I won’t even bother trying to make sense out of something that has well and truly grown far beyond its inauspicious beginnings. I’ll just stick with what initially attracted me to it, and observe just how other people try to apply the phenomena in other fandoms.

    If they work (and it would take a really bored or really united fandom to do so), well, score one for Chaos Theory; if they don’t, then I can just shrug at the half-effort they put into it.

  8. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 12:32 pm

    … And Traps? When the heck did Traps ever have ANYTHING to do with the issue of Genderflips as a storytelling device, genre phenomenon or sub-fandom generating activity? Two different issues, Haess, in concept as well as form.

  9. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 12:52 pm

    RmX: From the perspective of the viewer, your explanation smacks of self-justifying sophistry – from the Haruhi fan who stumbles across Seitenken with their knowledge of Haruhi (genki girl with reality-bending powers torments/harasses people around her who try to keep her from ending the world… again), there’s very, VERY little difference between a genderswap and a trap – you’ve taken a character they know as female or as male and switched around their appearance, either by dressing them up as a girl or full-out changing the design to suit the new genderswapped identity. It doesn’t matter that Kyonko has ALWAYS been a girl to said new reader/viewer – they knew Kyon as a guy, and seeing Kyonko as a girl means that Kyon’s been swapped.

    From your perspective as a creator, yes, this is an AU and thus all is right with the world. For the new viewer coming from the original material, even when it’s explained to them, it’s a genderswap. For someone who never knew the original, then it’s much easier to explain it as an alternate universe of the original Haruhi… but then they look at the original material and figure, at least initially, that the characters they know (the creations of contributors to Seitenken) are swapped from how they first met them. As I said earlier, and agreed with you with, the swapping of genders in storytelling is an old technique – it’s the whole changeover of everyone in order to create an AU which was pursued seriously as a work that stood on its own merits and as a ‘vehicle’ to perpetuate the Haruhi fandom which concerned me as an outsider… which is where the Amalthianism Puritan Inquisitor persona kicks in. It’s like saying that Angelic Days, The Record of Heaven’s Descent, or Girlfriend of Steel has helped spread and sustain the NGE fandom. To be honest? It hasn’t done that – it’s done well in helping Gainax milk more money out of their existing fanbase, but it hasn’t sustained or expanded it to any great extent.

    Fanfic is something a fan community creates, but that doesn’t spread the fandom or keep it vital – all it does is sate the need of fans who want to put the characters they know into situations which weren’t presented in the original work. The only thing that really sustains a fandom is the enthusiasm for the work and the setting itself; and enthusiasm has a tendency to fade after a long time without fresh blood in the form of new fans or more works which the community collectively likes.

    Myssa Rei: You should, but it puts me in the mood to drain a bottle of vodka just to try and understand the ending. Complete, utter batshit insanity is the only way to put out something like this without inserting self-parodying elements.

    Note again that I stated that much of this is a persona, but there are some concerns which underly it, specifically with regards to expectations of people who get into Seitenken first because it has a cute girl, and then they get exposed to the original who is… not so cute, and definitely not girly. Or at how people look at Seitenken and consider it the next Coming of the God-Empress but then look at other genderswapped settings like they were rank pieces of excreable filth just because they swapped the genders. And note what I said about the gender-swapping and the role it plays in viewer/reader expectations, and the source of some comedy which Haruhi has; it’s not the weirdness which entertains so much as the outrageousness, particularly during “The Day of Saggitarius” or some of Haruhi’s actions during the Mysterious Sign episodes.

    As to everyone else, if Seitenken is acceptable, I see no reason why Sunoharako is unacceptable. Let them genderswap and we’ll see what things they create, be they nightmarish visions or works of unsurpassing beauty. But we’ll see how Kogarashiko turns out. I’ll be talking with Sixten to see what he thinks.

  10. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 12:57 pm

    As for the traps, they can create a similar sort of cognitive dissonance in the viewer’s eyes – due to the same initial discomfort or confusion formed from knowing a character as one gender, but then seeing them as another. The MAIN difference with traps is that they’re superficial changes, versus the rather more permanent/radical change of a genderswap. For the viewer, the only real difference is knowing that is a guy/girl physically… and knowing that they’ve completely switched genders, which makes it okay to ‘fap’.

    Or, in cases of things like Jun Watarase or Mizuho Miyanokouji… the fandom just goes into collective denial, or straight out ‘If it’s Jun/Mizuho, it’s okay’.

  11. Ithekro Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 12:58 pm

    If I may interject just a little.

    In Seitenkan we do run through some CRACK ideas. However most of them end after a small debate on if the series and charcters can work genderbent.

    Most harem shows have been eliminated with minor meta thoughts still on Kanon as tie in material for Kyon. It is more experimental than anything else and will probably not get out of prototype tests.

    Shana has been experimented with, mainly as an art study. Trying to see how much like Kyon Shana-kun would look given that the two series have relatively the same art style.

    I was in the process of discounting Minami-ke when I wondered how Hosaka would look as a woman and how his character would be reflected as “disgusting” by a make Maki and yet still dreaming after an male Haruka. And just how far would a female Hosaka strip in public. Other than that the idea is practically worthless because all one would do is swap the character models between the two Minami families (with something being done with Chiaki) and reverse the Touma/Makoto traps. Or perhaps switch Haruka and Hosako’s character models and be done with it. You effectively get nothing out of it so it was considered a worthless idea.

    Most experiments end quickly because the nature of the show or character cannot be effectively genderbent, thus making it only an excersize in our mental capacity to think out all the possible problems the situation would have, and to see if it could work. most don’t. Haruhi, for whatever reason, does.

  12. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

    Haesslich: Look away (too late, at Chapter 32 at this point) ? Or get Alain and Axel to join in the heckling?

    It’s a mess, a glorious unimaginable mess that you get after mixing EVA and WH40k, but it entertains. Plus, it does help that I’m bored out out my mind at work at the moment, so the literary purist in me is more… forgiving.

    As to the issue of a new initiate to a fandom looking in and confusing traps with true genderflips… Well, people are putting a little TOO much faith in the mint-new fanboy/fangirl. There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt; of course there will be confusion. Of course there will be misunderstandings. That’s why the old hands will have to set the berk straight.

    And I am under no illusion that the Seitenkan movement is perpetuating the fandom; it is giving them something to do while waiting for actual, honest-to-goodness material from the original source. God Knows that it’s been nearly 2 years since the last book, and the natives are restless.

  13. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 1:37 pm

    Ithekro: I can see Shana-kun working as a genderswap, although Shana’s attitude towards Yuuji/Yuuki will be problematic at times; the Shana of the original series really isn’t… socialized very well, and so has no idea of gender roles in modern-day Japan; that’s part of why she behaves the way she does, as she’s in many ways a modern ‘wolf child’ with regards to social mores and graces. How would you handle that with a male version, without making it look excessively graceless and possibly exploitative of Yuuki?

    Minami-ke’s an odd case, given that it involves traps and characters who on the one hand insist on being treated like a guy (Touma), then go on insisting that they’re girls when confronted on the guy thing. Or Mako-chan, who gets imposed on by Kana, who has Haruhi’s lack of concern but with a bit more conscience due to the family bonds between her and her sisters. I really don’t want to think too deeply on Hosako, not really; the stripping might be right out, but I can see her letting her hair down and then shaking it out like she was the heroine of a dorama, with it waving in the wind… even though there’s no wind inside the classroom. About the only way a genderswap would work in that situation would be to switch the genders… but then to try to draw the comedy out of Kana getting ‘his’ comeuppance, which isn’t quite how the manga source goes.

    Kogarashi’s already in a dress; we can certainly take him/her places, but most of those are dark, festering pits of insanity and madness. By the way, I’ve already dropped a bug in Sixten’s ear – let’s see wha the makes of my question.

    Myssa Rei: Back when I got into fanfic… which is probably more years than I care to remember (and I KNOW I’m older than you), there was only one response to such fics: MST treatment. You may as well get Axel in for this one; he’ll love how they integrate Mana in, I’m sure.

    And as I said before, fandom survives on new blood or renewed enthusiasm from new works… and Seitenken (and most fanfic) is the equivalent of the fandom… well, I won’t use the term I was going to use here.

  14. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 1:49 pm

    Haesslich: Doug Weeks is a better deal, since Axel is busy with work. Plus he does a better tsukommi than I could EVER do.

    And do recall, out of all the old hands, I was the one enamored of the game characters… Which is why I nearly tore my hair out at the treatment of Mana, plus the handwave that happened to Mayumi (it is an accepted fact that BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO UNIT-03). Still, it would be too meanspirited to do a MST… Even for 40k players like myself (or Doug, and HE plays Sisters of Battle).

    As for Sixten and your diabolical plans, let us see what depths of madness he can go to cook up Kogarashi as Kamen no Butler Gal.

  15. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 2:36 pm

    You don’t have to do meanspirited MST’s – I’ve seen some lovely ones which are more comedic than that. All you have to do is find the mildly ridiculous spots and put in a sly or snarky comment.

    And that’s Kamen no Maid GIRL. You can’t tamper with the source TOO much, with this sort of thing, lest you lose the connection/familiarity of the original source which gives it part of its charm. :P Surely you and the rest of the Seitenken people have remembered that.

  16. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 2:50 pm

    Haesslich: Hai hai, I understand that much. We shall see, oh yes, we shall see the fruits of the insanity. Do tell me so I can tune out the horror when it sees the light of day.

    By the way, speaking of Kogarashi (or maids in general)… The Meido RPG has become a major timesink for Me, Doug Weeks, and Axel. Talk about craziness, you should see just the stuff we rolled randomly. Doug Weeks is probably the only one who’s rolled the equivalent of MASTER ASIA for a maid (yes, you got it, in the wierdness chart, Doug got ‘You are really a man’).

    My result was a: Pure, Tomboyish, and totally guileless (I rolled a score of 0 at my Cunning stat) runaway with a history of abuse (has scars everywhere as a physical feature), who is ALSO a distant relative of the master (or GM), who uses knives, has Improved Evasion…. And cries her heart out when overly stressed out.

    Yes, my off hours aren’t exactly idle.

  17. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 2:55 pm

    Oh, and Haess… The fic IS called Shinji and Warhammer 40k. EVERYTHING about it is ridiculous (starting from the chapter where Shinji more or less has control over most of the land in Tokyo 3), so you will have to excuse me when I say that there won’t be an end to the snark.

    Also, have you read the start of the 2nd chapter? It practically begins with ‘DJ Croft? Who’s that?’

    Oh, the possibilities…Pass the popcorn.

  18. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 3:23 pm

    Myssa: You need to introduce Jason to that game. I’m sure he could make a post or three out of a Meido RPG.

    And yes, I know the fic is called that – and it was meant to be madcap and completely off the wall. It had to be, in order for things to work out as they did. I still am tempted to find the author so I can introduce him to my promethium flamer, though, and the joys of the Inquisitor’s attention.

    People always think I’m kidding when I talk about the toaster…

  19. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 3:48 pm

    Haesslich: I did. I even sent the darned .PDF to his email. Still no reply.

    As for Genderflipping, now that we’ve pretty much established that Seitenkan has spread, through to being part genre phenomenon and part storytelling device that is not only subjective, but owes very much to the bullheadedness of the fandom where it came from for even lasting this long… Any guesses as to what other fandom can pull it off?

    I mean, there’re others out there that are as… united… in their desires as the Haruhiists, and as much as it might amuse/horrify me, I still don’t think it fits with other long-running series just as well. Ithekro more or less admitted to transposing Seitenkan to other series as a mental exercise, after all.

  20. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 3:57 pm

    Since y’all didn’t believe one of my statements…

    I give you the Not-Safe-For-Work-Or-ANYWHERE-Including-Life Orange-ko. Congrats Danbooru, you sick collection of mentally-unhinged folk. Let the hara-kiri festival begin.

    Again, it’s very, VERY NSFW, life, limb, or sanity. This is the sort of thing I feared way back when. Leave it to Code Geass to make my fears… become even worse than I’d have imagined.

  21. Haesslich Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 4:02 pm

    And Myssa: Do -not- click on the link. Do not even mouseover the link. Do not admit the link exists. Until you get home. Then feel free to blast yourself into oblivion. As for the RPG, roll up a character for Jason and post it on the blog.

    As for Seitenken, the only one which springs to mind that might pull off similar is NGE – but they’ve split into too many factions, in large part due to all the spinoff works and the gradual decay of the old guard’s interest.

  22. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 5:52 pm

    Haess, I play 40k, which also means I read the literature. You expect ANYTHING to shock me at this point?

    (clicks on link)

    Hmph, it only looks like they jammed Orange-kun’s head on a hooker’s body. And I was expecting something, well, horrific. Boo.

    Anyway here’s the Meido RPG PDF. Enjoy spreading the madness to Sixten while you’re at it (and maybe Kuro here will like it too).

  23. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 7:58 pm

    Here, managed to upload my actual character sheet:

  24. TheBigN Said,

    October 15, 2008 @ 8:31 pm

    “TheBigN: I didn’t start this one.”

    Of course. But I’ve found that when topics like this crop up, the two of you are sure to follow, and it’s great stuff. :3

  25. On IRC: To Be Broken Is To Be? « Drastic My Anime Blog Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 1:00 am

    […] to be making it commonplace. So, influenced partly at how serious things seem to have gotten on this recent post of Kurogane’s, I decided to ask on IRC what “broken” really means for fun, for silliness and for […]

  26. Newprimus Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 2:26 am

    The mediafire link is broken in the OP.

  27. Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 2:30 am

    Oh god, Shinji and Warhammer 40k.

    Oh. God.

    Also, I should ban linking TVTropes here. I just wasted half an hour there again. Why is that site so fucking addictive?

  28. Haesslich Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 7:49 am

    Myssa: You’re not the one who’ll get scarred, but that link likely breaks every work regulation regarding Internet use that I can think of. The legs are particularly… bad. Not Suzaku-in-a-cheerleader-outfit bad, but… bad.

    And the problem I have with that pic is that it looks JUST enough like Orange-kun to be semi-believable, especially with the way they cyborged him up and how you never saw him in anything but that suit until the last episode.

  29. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 7:57 am

    Pfft, Kuro, you are still young I see. Old hands like Haess and me just just take a peek at the TVTropes page, find what we need, then run for the hills, else valuable work time is wasted. ;)

    And boo, nobody took the time to even TEST or READ the Meido RPG PDF? I’m disappointed.

  30. Haesslich Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 9:02 am

    Myssa: Read it, didn’t comment on it. Not my cup of tea.

  31. Magnius of the Chaos Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 10:47 am

    You two are fucking insane.

    In a good way.

    But in a I-don’t-plan-on-reading-80-comments good way.

  32. Haesslich Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 10:56 am

    Magnius: You didn’t even see the essays in the comments field, then. 81 comments isn’t mad – Jason’s Minami-ke posts and then some of the Macross Frontier ones got way, way more than that.

  33. Haesslich Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 11:10 am

    Incidentally, ToraDora 3’s out and I’ve already lined up my expletives. Episode 4’s blog entry likely will include an essay-length diatribe which will hopefully be entertaining as well as obscene enough to violate decency laws in several countries.

  34. Myssa Rei Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 12:10 pm

    Which reminds me, if my Graduate Degree application pushes through and I start up my writer’s blog to prepare to the inevitable final requirement for the course (100 page novel OR a pair of 50-page novellas), remind me never EVER to publicize it, to avoid luring Haess to it.

  35. Haesslich Said,

    October 16, 2008 @ 12:44 pm

    Myssa: Why? Just because I’m pondering the creative ranting process doesn’t mean I’d crash a novella. And all you have to do is keep typing.

  36. Clannad 05/06 Misae Arc \ Fall Preliminary Results « The Orange Farm Said,

    November 13, 2008 @ 5:26 pm

    […] *cries*  He looks good in that outfit while blushing…Am I turning into Kurogane?! […]

  37. 12 Anime Moments in 12 Days (Day 3) - March: Ponytails are fine too « Anime Academy Said,

    December 16, 2008 @ 8:46 pm

    […] the idea spread to Clannad, Code Geass and Macross Frontier where sometimes it would produce one or two questionable […]

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