And I thought pimp Sunohara was bad enough… the Internet hasn’t failed to prove me wrong yet. Admitedly, Sunoko is… is… cute.
There! I said it! I-i-i-it doesn’t mean I wanna do it with him! O-o-o-okay?!! D-d-don’t m-m-misunderstand me! I j-j-just thought it was c-c-cute, that’s all!
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Buy stuff from our affliates! .... while loooking like enjoying it throughout the henshin sequence was pretty fake. 
I mean, she's pretty much using the perfume bottle to aplly her outfit on herself. And her surprise after going through the whole thing....
This is why I can't watch mahou shoujo nowadays. I nearly died laughing at the transformation scene for Cure Bloossom.
Ohgodohgodohgod i'm watching Heartcatch Precure!!!!!!
@ipamela94 Hi, thank you.
catrophy Said,
October 13, 2008 @ 11:52 pm
theres gotta be something wrong with for finding this toally acceptable. also, i didnt know you were kugyuu in disguise
le nuage Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 12:03 am
Internet never fails.
There is even a real game based on da capo but where every girls are male.
Phuong Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 12:09 am
Kurogane’s gone tsundere on us.
Jason Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 12:25 am
Nagi-Louise style tsundere no less.
Clear Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 1:01 am
It’s a trap!
die Sunoko, die!
Impz Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 2:10 am
So…moe….
WAIT WHAT???
Kaisos Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 3:21 am
It’s rare that you find that character type among females… only one I can think of off the top of my head is Tomo Takino.
So yeah, Sunoko is a fairly interesting idea.
But why does she look like Komari Kamikita?
wildarmsheero Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 4:30 am
Oh lawd
IFYOUWAS Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 5:25 am
haha , this is a nice anime , finished the whole episode.
Heero Yuy Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 5:38 am
Hahahah, this is too amusing. Just when I started giving him respect for the pimp scene, this happens.
And Kurogane’s acting like oh so many Kugimiya Rie characters…
Ithekro Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 6:12 am
Sixten will draw you next I imagine.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 8:36 am
YEAAAAAGH! BURN! IN THE NAME OF THE GOD-EMPRESS, BURN THAT ABOMINATION WITH RIGHTHEOUS FIRE!
Kidding aside, Kuro, are you SURE you’re not taking lessons from Jason lately?
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Which Jason?
RmX Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 9:24 am
@Kaisos: Don’t we usually add -ko to the given name? In which case her name would be Sunohara Youko.
Haesslich Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 9:35 am
Kurogane:
The Derailed By Darry one, of course. With the crossgender pictures all over the place.
Someone really ought to link him these pictures, just to see how further he can be broken. And yes, Myssa Rei, NOW you see the dangers I foretold of ages past.
Kaisos Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 9:50 am
Yeah, Sunohara Youko. That works better.
But despite how amusing this is, genderbending Clannad really doesn’t work that well.
And no, he’s not technically a trap.
Traps are men dressed up as women. This is clearly female.
RmX Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 9:59 am
@Kaisos: It’s not technically. It’s absolutely.
And let’s expand on that definition. Traps are men dressed up as women that LOOK like women. Men unconvincingly dressing up as women is called drag.
And this is neither.
Kairu Ishimaru Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 10:03 am
After the Haruhi Suzumiya genderbend [ http://kielmaru07.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/the-genderbending-of-haruhi-suzumiya/ ], It is now in Clannad!? wtf!?
Jason Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 10:24 am
Damn. I need a pseudonym =X
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 12:08 pm
Haesslich: I dunno, I found the Haruhi thing cute at first, but this is now like a reverse-Spiral, and it’s pretty much spinning out of control at this point.
Or is it? Do recall that it is INEVITABLE for some fandoms to transpose gender roles unto the characters. You and I are old enough to have seen it before in other fandoms. I got into anime as an emo 11-year old girl, darn it, and I’m more than a Christmas Cake now!
I think the problem now is that, it’s happening SO QUICKLY. Usually stuff like this pops up once a fandom gets bored, some two or three months (or more) after the series ceases airing. You do NOT see fandom flips while the DARN SERIES IS STILL ON AIR.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
*sigh* This is one of the few times I wish I wasn’t so enamored of the whole Kyon Transgender movement. What’s cute in one fandom does NOT transpose well into another. For one, HOW THE HECK IS IT SUPPOSED TO BE FUN TO WATCH A MALE TOMOYO WAIL ON A GIRL YOUHEI.
That’s just so wrong Haess. We have to draw a line somewhere.
Azu Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 1:19 pm
AJ did show to me Sunoko before, I said I’d do her “for the right price”.
RmX Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
@Myssa: Which is why no one really pursues the idea of a genderbent Clannad. But it does highlight the societal double standard quite well.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
RmX: Very cleary. While it’s all fun and games to watch Youhei get his arse handed to him regularly by Tomoyo, you’d really have to be cold-hearted to enjoy the very same thing happening when you flip around the genders.
Haesslich Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Myssa Rei: If you accept it in one fandom, you have to accept it all over the place. Even Neon Gender Evangelion took about a decade or so to show up, outside of the odd fanfic which wasn’t taken seriously. Now it’s a meme of its own, with the breakout ’success’ of Seitankan, which means that the meme is not out of the control of those who advocated it… which is the defining characteristic of a meme. As for fandom flips with series on the air, may I point to the in-series (well, in-OVA) flip of Happiness? Or the in-series flip of ARIA, specifically episode 22 of Aria the Natural? It happens… and the problem is once it becomes ‘okay’ or is justified by ‘this keeps the fandom alive and makes it more popular’.. well, why NOT do it to Clannad? It keeps the fandom alive and potentially makes a specific character more popular – especially in a show which has polarized its fandom somewhat with its choice of girls, and has times been accused of being ‘boring’ (like the whole Fuuko arc). And then, when the detractors show up, they point at Seitenkan and say “Well, they’re doing it…”
It’s one thing to do genderswap as a joke. It’s another to make it a whole storyline/subset of the fandom of its own. Genderswaps do happen, as given in the previous examples… but Seitenkan takes the genderswap to the next level – instead of using it as a joke, it becomes its own fandom/cult/subset of the series in the eyes of the people who do it. And… well, once you start a meme, it’s kinda hard to control how it spreads and mutates. So disliking this while taking the whole Seitenken Haruhi-led jerkass abuse and saying that it’s cceptable… you have to take responsibility. ;)
Me? I’m going to be sitting in the corner with a bottle and laughing my ass off at the idea of a female Sunohara trying to get a date with a male Ryou… only to have Kyou show up.
Haesslich Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
Now out of the control, even.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 6:16 pm
Well, I do admit to being guilty of partaking in Seitenkan, but really, I’m just one fangirl out of many (mm, delicious Yuuki). Which is why I find it funny that, whenever this topic comes up, both of us start pointing fingers! I didn’t START the darned thing, whokay? I didn’t even POPULARIZE it — heck, I was horrified by just how quickly it spread at first, just ask Axel and Doug Weeks. ;P
Still, I do understand now that, well, there comes a time where a line needs to be drawn.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 6:22 pm
Ugh, Memetic Mutation can be a pain, but I never really expected to witness ANOTHER one in a fandom I follow so quickly. The Yukkuri thing in Touhou was bad enough (the horror, THE HORROR), at least this one started relatively innocently (haha, RIGHT).
Hmph, we shall see just how far the madness spreads. I noticed that transposing the phenom has hit obstacles in both Geass (too yaoi-ish) and Macross Frontier (too easy).
Zeroblade Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
Sunoko is cute though Tomoko is pretty hot too.
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 10:00 pm
Wow, this has turned from a “OMG SUNOKO SO MOE FAP FAP FAP” to a “OH GODS WHAT HAVE WE CRAZY FANBOY/FANGIRLS DONE?!!” post.
Personally, I think it’s fine enough to have alternate gender versions of characters, as long as the fans aren’t being obnoxious about it. I have nothing against Haruhi Seitenken so far, actually.
Di Gi Kazune Said,
October 14, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
Kyon’s sister with blonde hair. That’s what she looks like.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 2:06 am
Myssa: I take it that you haven’t seen the guy versions of Ranka and Sheryl, then? Sheryl makes a very handsome guy. But yes, mrmes mutate and spread; that’s their nature and how they survive. Now take the consequences of supporting Seitanken like a man… er, woman. ;)
kuro: that’s why I’m sitting here laughing at the horrified responses. I knew something like this would happen and wasn’t surprised or horrified as a result. Imagine Kamen no Maid Guy, swapped. Kogarashiko! Checking out Naeki-sama’s dirty shorts! Taste that bile, Myssa! ;)
Kaisos Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 5:04 am
Not everything should be genderbent. We understand this.
And Kamen no Maid Guy would never have come up if it weren’t for you. THANKS.
RmX Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 5:10 am
@Haess: You’re the one coming up with the bad ideas that will give everyone eye cancer. Not us.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 5:23 am
RmX: I take no credit or blame for Sunohara-ko. However, I did warn you all that Seitenken would lead to worse things. Fast-forward five months, and we have Clannad’s Sunohara-ko, Code Geass’ Luluko and Suzako, and soon we can look forward to Luke-ko and Teariki from Tales of the Abyss.
Oh, and Kogarashiko along with Naeki forcing Fubuki into man-style ‘fine play’.
TheBigN Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 6:03 am
Why am I not surprised to see Myssa Rei and Haesslich on here?
Good job Kuro. (b”)b
RmX Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 6:10 am
@Haess: The concept of genderbending characters for the lulz has been around since the time of Ranma. The fandom of Clannad is no exception. Hell, before Seitenkan became prominent there were plenty of attempts to genderbend just Kyon and Itsuki, but they failed miserably because all they did was remove their penises and add boobs and vaginas.
As for Code Geass, it’s a different case altogether, given CLAMP’s influence on the ambiguous character designs and the ridiculous amount of crossdressing nonsense that has been injected into the fandom. The distinction between Lelouch and Suzaku in drag versus the actual Luluko and Suzako has been forever blurred. Not that there’s much motivation to fix it though.
Seitenkan is not about the indiscriminate genderswapping just to see what our favorite characters would look like as the opposite sex, but about seeing how the characters’ counterparts would differ in behavior and interactions. Call us elitist, but typically what the rest of the Internet produces is merely mediocrity with little to no thought behind it.
Kaisos Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 6:51 am
Haess, I never would have even thought of genderbending ToTA if you hadn’t mentioned it, either.
We tend to refrain from genderbending shows or series that don’t work that well, such as Geass, Clannad, and yes, Maid Guy.
Kogarashi’s appeal comes from his GAR. If we remove that, we have nothing, and thus we have no show. We don’t do things like that.
We don’t genderbend things unless they either improve or have little to no effect on the quality of a series, which is why we’ve shot down Clannad as a possibility before.
Only a few select people are clamoring for genderbent Clannad, and it certainly doesn’t have the following Haruhi Seitenkan does.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 7:03 am
TheBigN: I didn’t start this one. Kuro got broke pretty damned well by the -ko stuff, though. Look for his early Ranka and Sheryl genderswap pic – Ranka was more manly than Luca…. and that’s saying something.
RmX: I’ve seen the Cheerleader Suzaku (non-genderswap) pics from the Lost Colors game, which also had Rai crossdress in a qipao and padded bra. Trust me when I say Suzaku and Luluko look far, far less feminine than they do in their Genderswap versions… well, scratch Luluko. Suzaku in a sports bra and a short skirt is eye-gouging, while Lulu in the bridal gown is just androgynous in the Fai sort of way. CLAMP characters tend to be pretty, but most of their characters still have a very prominent ‘male’ look to them – look at Kurogane from Tsubasa Chronicle, Hideki of Chobits was plain but definitely masculine, Watanuki and Doumeki of xXxHolic are manly, and even the pretty-boys of CCS were obviously masculine despite their bishounen prettiness. Lulu and Fai are the only two characters who really COULD be easily mistaken for women, due to their overwhelmingly effemininate features and mannerisms.
What I -do- blame Seitenken for is for making genderswap of a current series, which never had genderswap in-series before, a meme of ‘it’s acceptable to make them ALL different, because it’s the same series but with everyone swapped’, rather than just ‘we’ll swap character X and character Y’s genders for a bit for a joke’. Instead of making genderswap a joke, as it was previously (even Ranma used it more for comedic effect, and Kashimashi only did it to ONE character as a dramatic/comedic tool), it became a whole fandom/setting of its own, and one which was very fertile meme for further permutations. Fanfic with genderswaps are one thing, but they usually only focused on a few characters, rather than switching around everyone in the setting and then spinning that off the source material – in that way, I’d call Seitenken more akin to the Toast World NGE or one of the spin-off manga/game storylines, which had major changes to all of the characters in terms of looks and behaviors, than a ’simple’ genderswap.
And as I said before, when this all began, you ran the risk of making genderswap the next thing… which would mean that everything would go from normal to trap to this. Sunohara-ko is a result of this trend. Kogarashiko is an end product which I both dread and look forward to. Once the idea’s been introduced into the world, you have NO control over how it’s used, and Rule 34 comes into play as well. And yes, I have to call you an elitist, and maybe a hypocrite, for saying that SOME genderswap is acceptable to let you ‘play with new settings’… only to recoil in horror when someone takes Sunohara and makes him a girl, just to see how funny it would be to see her perform her normal antics in a skirt with a male Kyouki doing what a female Kyou would normally do to Sunohara.
Hell, they already DID genderswap Kuso-Miso Technique (Uho! Iii otome! Yaranaika?). How much worse can this get? Let’s find out. ;) How about Genderswap Fist of the North Star?
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 7:21 am
(still LOL’ing at the shitstorm)
This is actually very fun to watch. Serious. And yes, thanks Haesslich for introducing much much more mindfucking examples of genderbending for us, like Luke-ko, Teariki and the Yaranaika ones.
Personally, I think the whole genderbending thing also is affected by real world gender issues as our species as a whole start getting more and more interconnected by the Internet thus enabling a much more wider and faster flow of idea-sharing.
I mean, it’s now perfectly legal to have homosexual marriages and gender changing operations, so genderswapping as a result is a perfect memetic expansion of that acceptance in our field of interests. After all, anime is quite an abstract and artistic media and also much more liberal to new themes and ideas than Western animation or whatsoever.
Kaisos Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 7:24 am
Haess, you type too much.
As for Haruhi Seitenkan being akin to NGE’s Toast Universe… well, that is really what I was aiming for in the first place.
And I, for one, don’t mind Sunohara-ko, but I’m more concerned with the fact that Clannad, unlike Haruhi, relies too much on romance and gender concepts to actually work genderbent.
What we’re trying to do is retain some element of control over it, but I personally don’t mind it going out of our control… after all, this is the Internet.
But, as I said, no one would have thought of doing it to Maid Guy if you hadn’t brought it up in the first place.
Why do you hate us so much anyway…?
RmX Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 7:43 am
@Haess: For the same reasons you seem to oppose the movement, I am for it. Genderswapping only one or two characters I am against, and genderswapping them all I am for. Making it a joke I am against, and having a serious business approach to rewriting the characters and story I support.
Regarding your progression of “normal to trap to this”, I am still wondering why you persist with the notion that traps are somehow involved in this process.
Also, who said we were recoiling in horror at a female Sunohara being abused by a male Kyou? We’re merely pointing out society’s double standard had this been the case.
If you want to genderbend everything then fine. You’ll see why it doesn’t work.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:32 am
I mean, wow, I leave for the night (and rage at the fact that the can of wood stain I use for model shading has dried up) and this is what I find. Haess, judging from the series that you commented on genderflipping… I officially do NOT want to even look into that demented mind of yours. Yaranaika? Kamen no Maid Guy?! By all that is holy…
And my word, where did traps even come into this?
I’m perfectly content to just accept the fact that the Haruhi Seitenkan movement is as close to an AU as we can get for the franchise (though if it’s a defense mechanism at the horror of the rapid memetic mutation, you decide). It’s fun, and in a way, it’s unobtrusive since the transition between gender roles is more or less smooth. Besides, it is an accepted fact that Haruhi is a humongous Jerk (with a heart well-hidden in there somewhere); turning her into Haruhiko just brought that trait more into focus.
Also, you seem to forget that, while many in the movement take things seriously, the flip is still played for the laughs. Just wait for me to upload those Yare Yare Kyonko doujin… They’re quite a sidesplitter, and they highlight how ridiculous (and funny) some situations can be when the gender roles are reversed.
The thing about all the other series you’ve just happened to mention, and why giving them the Seitenkan treatment illicits such horror, is the fact that the GENDER ROLES themselves that make them work. It shows how much of a doublse-standard we have as a society when we laugh at how much Tomoyo kicks Sunohara’s arse; flip roles around, and it’s no longer funny, but blatanly cruel and abusive. Likewise for something like Inukami! Ra-Oh Keita’s a laugh a minute as he runs around in his birthday suit, and throw in the homoerotic overtones with Karina, and it’s gold; turn things around, and watch in horror.
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:34 am
Oh god why did you have to bring up Inukami in to the discussion… /pif
Also, while traps are thematically similar, but they’re are a totally different ballgame than full-on genderbent, IMHO.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:36 am
And Fist of the North Star? Haess, where the HECK do you dig up these ideas? In nomen Deus Imperatrix Haruhi, that’s just…. wrong.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:39 am
Kurogane: Why? Just pointing out an example of a Series that does not really work (or WARPS SANITY) when gender-flipped. Haruhi seems to be one of those few modern examples that WORK when you flip the gender roles for the whole cast.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:44 am
Ironically, the OTHER series that seems to work with a full-cast genderflip is… Legend of Galactic Heroes, simply for the fact that romance doesn’t really take a precedence in the affairs of the characters until the very last season.
Yes, I have too much time on my hands here at work.
EvilDevil Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 9:57 am
Oh, God. I need help, I think I am sick!!!!
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:13 am
Kurogane: Danbooru has the genderswapped KMT stuff. Don’t credit me for that one – Rule 34 created it, and it’s out there. Fist of the North Star, however.. I will accept blame for. Ditto Kamen no Maid Guy, should that actually get drawn. Maybe I need to make suggestions to Sixten… and gay marriage wasn’t as much of an issue in Europe as it is in North America or very Islamic countries, due to the separation of church and state with regards to how ’sin’ is regarded and then legislated against – the United States’ origins as a Puritan colony show in its legislation, while Italy’s strong religious bent up until recently has forced through legislation that might not have gotten through anywhere else in Europe.
Kaisos: I never knew romance was THAT dependent on sexuality. Some of the jokes in the game and series are (for the same reason Haruhi costume-raping Mikuru is comedy since they’re both girls, but would be seen as misogynistic if Haruhi was Haruki while Mikuru was still a girl), but at the same time the concept of romance can be executed similarly even if the genders are swapped. Tomoya’s issues with his father would be similar if he/she was having problems with a drunken mother, and the Nagisa arc wouldn’t have been THAT different if she was a guy… except in how being ‘forward’ as a girl in Japan wasn’t until recently as acceptable due to traditional Japanese gender expectaitons with regards to behaviors. Not that Tomoyo or Kyou really fall so much into the ‘yamato nadeshiko’ mold… not nearly as much as say… Sanae or maybe Ryou. I don’t see why anyone would problems with Clannad-genderswap, if you accept that Seitenken is perfectly valid as a fandom. Both of them would deal with all of the cast being genderswapped and being put into the same situations as the original, with only the gender being different and the possibilities inherent in how Tomoyako would deal with a male-harem sort of situation.
RmX: Genderswap as a joke or a dramatic device an old, old idea – that’s one tool that’s existed for years for writers and creators, with Ranma’s twist being that it could be used as a comedic tool due to the ever-present nature of the swap-device (water), and one that’s been put to some use in more recent ecchi comedy manga (To-Love-RU had both the Ranma-style Ren/Run situation, and the more traditional ‘Riko’ around Chapter 100-102) as well. My main concern with Seitenken was that it was… being expanded well beyond a thought experiment or a ‘joke’, into its own fandom/meme. And THAT concern, for the most part, is one I play up for humour with the fire-and-brimstone Amalthianist Inquisitor persona I don for posting on Seitenken-related threads.
As far as traps go, they belong mostly because it fits in with the same role that genderswap does – you take a character’s sexuality and reverse it (albeit in a less permanent/dramatic way) and then watch the chaos that results as they character either acts along the expectations that come with being ‘of that gender’ or how they go against it. It can be used for comedy (Mako-chan and Minami Touma of Minami-ke, Watarase Jun of Happiness), or for a more serious purpose (The Crying Game, Madame Butterfly). It’s not exactly a big jump to make it more permanent (genderswap) for similar effect, at least not for the viewer. For the characters, it may or may not matter either, depending on the personality and situation.
Personally, I say ‘let them’ with regards to genderswapping everyone – it’s perfectly valid as a storytelling tool or as a thought experiment, and if it can be done to Haruhi I don’t see any point in stopping it for Clannad or even Kanon. Yes, you have to rework some things… but haven’t you already done so with Seitenken? It’s like the pot calling the kettle black, if it’s declared it ONLY works with Haruhi.
Myssa Rei: I didn’t create Yaranaika-genderswap. The Japanese did that, as a look on Danbooru or through image boards will show. I, unfortunately, stumbled across it while googling KMT after an offhand reference on a blog. Come to think about it, I think it was one of Kurogane’s posts on “Volleyball wo Yaranaika” that brought the topic up; I only knew it as “Yaranaika”.
And as I noted before, the things Haruhi does to Mikuru would be considered sexual harassment in the United States of America, especially if the gender was swapped on Haruhi – the only reason it’s seen as comic is because Haruhi is a girl and is acting against traditional gender roles and behaviors which are considered ‘normal’ for a girl. I really don’t see the difference when you let Haruki do something similar to a male Mikuro, as that’d be considered not funny when a guy’s bullying another guy. And then you object to Sunoharako getting the book treatment from Kyouki? The only reason it was ‘funny’ is because of how obviously ridiculous it is to have Sunohara’s face caved in by a dictionary, as well as the fact that the smaller girl’s beating up on a (slightly) bigger asshole of a guy. Switch that around, and yes – it’s horrifying.
Unfortunately, quite a bit of comedy depends on shock value as well as the borderline-uncomfortable nature of situations; things that are horrifying by themselves can sometimes be seen as funny in context. That’s why the term “Dead Baby Comedy” exists, and why an African-American on TV can use the N-word and be laughed at, while a white man doing the same thing is seen as a racist bastard. The sharp point of comedy is ever-present, whether it be in self-parody, mockery, or the occasional humorous look at a situation which is very serious but played into a context where it can be laughed at (sometimes with a nervous titter, sometimes with an uneasy chuckle, sometimes with a bellowing laugh at the ridiculousness of a situation). I don’t see the difference, at least not with this – the splitting of hairs smacks of defensiveness and an attempt to justify why one own’s product is ’superior’ to that of another, even if they have topical similarities.
As for the other genderswap ideas I tossed out, the reason they WERE created was because they are very wrong, and very much against the nature of the series or characters they’re derived from. Or they create very, very bad images in people’s minds – a poke at the shield of utter certainty in the correctness of one’s own self-image and ideals, through the use of the absurd or horrific.
Speaking of which, typing ‘genderswap’ into Danbooru brought up Genderswapped Wario, and there’s an awful lot of “Arc the Lad” stuff there too. Oh shit.. some otaku uploaded a risque Orange-ko picture. What I find interesting there is that the oldest 40 or so pages of entries on Danbooru in the Genderswap tag are about 90% Kyonko material, and only after Kyonko do other current (and some past) series really see a rise in genderswap appearances. Interesting how that worked out.
My goodness, but Rule 34 really is rampant in Japan. No wonder their birth rates are declining… ;)
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:14 am
@Myssa: Oh Haesslich just HAS to bring one of the most “ewww, gross” moments in the show up. Then again… it was one of the defining moments of the show.
Also, LoGH genderflipped? You’re as bad as Haesslich now. Oh god the images of female Reinhard and Yang Wenli are too much too take.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:17 am
Kurogane: Volleyball… wo yaranaika?
Of course, Shirashi HAD to wear the “Yaranaika” tie during the Live Action Lucky Channel at the end of the OVA. Unfortunately, we got too much whiny Akira, and not enough psycho-mode.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:20 am
… ah yes, and I can link the live on-stage “Volleyball o yaranaika?” bit that Daisuke Ono did during the Minami-ke Live, complete with opening his shirt and rubbing himself. Ah, but the cheers from the audience and the comments from the Minami family seiyuu was… enlightening.
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:21 am
Haesslich: For the life of me, I can’t remember what post that you’re talking about. A search of my archives only show one Minami-ke post and the Lucky Star OVA one. Are you referring to the OVA one?
Also, I’m still reading your essay-length comment.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 10:49 am
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/ShinjiAndWarhammer40K
I’m so glad I didn’t stick around the NGE fandom for THAT.
Kurogane: I’d have sworn “Volleyball wo Yaranaika” was around here SOMEWHERE – I think it got posted about around the period when Ren’ai Blogger had been released, or was a post of its own.
RmX Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 11:10 am
@Haess: I’ll respond to my part.
The problem I have with you bringing in traps is the connotation that the word genderbending presents. Our usage of the term “genderbending” is the creation of an entirely new character that is derived from the base design and personality of another. It is not the literal changing of a character’s sex to the other, which is the material typically presented in doujins and portrayed with comedy and confusion in stories like Ranma and To-Love-Ru. Seitenkan does not use genderbending as an active part of the plot, only as a means to present stories from a different perspective.
And I guess my question to you should be: “Why are you so concerned with Seitenkan being more than just a thought experiment?” It’s obviously more than just a joke at this point, and at least for Haruhi, has a created a sub-fandom within the original Haruhiist base. You can’t expect the same kind of success as has been achieved with the Haruhi movement, but I certainly have nothing against trying to genderswap any series that you can think deserves a shot. If someone can make a genderbent DBZ work, I will worship that person forever.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 11:48 am
Haesslich: You have NO idea just how much Doug Weeks and I are enjoying that one. We’re both debating if we should get Axel and Alain in for the fun.
It’s like Code Geass written by a Sunrise screenwriter on ACID; it’s so bad, you know it’s already hurtled off the rails, but you CAN’T LOOK AWAY… And yet it has its moments of brilliance. Too bad it looks like it’s killed off Mayumi when the author nuked most of NERV US…
Now, back to the topic. It’s interesting how much, well, thought you’ve put into the argument, frankly. Very compelling observations, but it really makes me wonder if you’re taking something that, even I admit, is a fun diversion that’s gotten out of control (still fun though depending on the dosage) too seriously.
Kaisos has a point — the Genderflip in Haruhi isn’t really that much of a paradigm shift as it is a storytelling device (and give the fans something to digest while Kadokawa baits them). Would it really change things for the chromosonal pairs to switch in the characters? Surprisingly, I’ve found that, gender expectations aside, very little changes in the story. I don’t think that Fujiwara would be any less of a jerk as a girl than as the smiling bastard that he is in the novel, for example.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
Using Genderflips as a story device is not much of an excuse, admittedly… Because the same case could be said of using character death as a plot engine as well. That is why at this point I won’t even bother trying to make sense out of something that has well and truly grown far beyond its inauspicious beginnings. I’ll just stick with what initially attracted me to it, and observe just how other people try to apply the phenomena in other fandoms.
If they work (and it would take a really bored or really united fandom to do so), well, score one for Chaos Theory; if they don’t, then I can just shrug at the half-effort they put into it.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
… And Traps? When the heck did Traps ever have ANYTHING to do with the issue of Genderflips as a storytelling device, genre phenomenon or sub-fandom generating activity? Two different issues, Haess, in concept as well as form.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
RmX: From the perspective of the viewer, your explanation smacks of self-justifying sophistry – from the Haruhi fan who stumbles across Seitenken with their knowledge of Haruhi (genki girl with reality-bending powers torments/harasses people around her who try to keep her from ending the world… again), there’s very, VERY little difference between a genderswap and a trap – you’ve taken a character they know as female or as male and switched around their appearance, either by dressing them up as a girl or full-out changing the design to suit the new genderswapped identity. It doesn’t matter that Kyonko has ALWAYS been a girl to said new reader/viewer – they knew Kyon as a guy, and seeing Kyonko as a girl means that Kyon’s been swapped.
From your perspective as a creator, yes, this is an AU and thus all is right with the world. For the new viewer coming from the original material, even when it’s explained to them, it’s a genderswap. For someone who never knew the original, then it’s much easier to explain it as an alternate universe of the original Haruhi… but then they look at the original material and figure, at least initially, that the characters they know (the creations of contributors to Seitenken) are swapped from how they first met them. As I said earlier, and agreed with you with, the swapping of genders in storytelling is an old technique – it’s the whole changeover of everyone in order to create an AU which was pursued seriously as a work that stood on its own merits and as a ‘vehicle’ to perpetuate the Haruhi fandom which concerned me as an outsider… which is where the Amalthianism Puritan Inquisitor persona kicks in. It’s like saying that Angelic Days, The Record of Heaven’s Descent, or Girlfriend of Steel has helped spread and sustain the NGE fandom. To be honest? It hasn’t done that – it’s done well in helping Gainax milk more money out of their existing fanbase, but it hasn’t sustained or expanded it to any great extent.
Fanfic is something a fan community creates, but that doesn’t spread the fandom or keep it vital – all it does is sate the need of fans who want to put the characters they know into situations which weren’t presented in the original work. The only thing that really sustains a fandom is the enthusiasm for the work and the setting itself; and enthusiasm has a tendency to fade after a long time without fresh blood in the form of new fans or more works which the community collectively likes.
Myssa Rei: You should, but it puts me in the mood to drain a bottle of vodka just to try and understand the ending. Complete, utter batshit insanity is the only way to put out something like this without inserting self-parodying elements.
Note again that I stated that much of this is a persona, but there are some concerns which underly it, specifically with regards to expectations of people who get into Seitenken first because it has a cute girl, and then they get exposed to the original who is… not so cute, and definitely not girly. Or at how people look at Seitenken and consider it the next Coming of the God-Empress but then look at other genderswapped settings like they were rank pieces of excreable filth just because they swapped the genders. And note what I said about the gender-swapping and the role it plays in viewer/reader expectations, and the source of some comedy which Haruhi has; it’s not the weirdness which entertains so much as the outrageousness, particularly during “The Day of Saggitarius” or some of Haruhi’s actions during the Mysterious Sign episodes.
As to everyone else, if Seitenken is acceptable, I see no reason why Sunoharako is unacceptable. Let them genderswap and we’ll see what things they create, be they nightmarish visions or works of unsurpassing beauty. But we’ll see how Kogarashiko turns out. I’ll be talking with Sixten to see what he thinks.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
As for the traps, they can create a similar sort of cognitive dissonance in the viewer’s eyes – due to the same initial discomfort or confusion formed from knowing a character as one gender, but then seeing them as another. The MAIN difference with traps is that they’re superficial changes, versus the rather more permanent/radical change of a genderswap. For the viewer, the only real difference is knowing that is a guy/girl physically… and knowing that they’ve completely switched genders, which makes it okay to ‘fap’.
Or, in cases of things like Jun Watarase or Mizuho Miyanokouji… the fandom just goes into collective denial, or straight out ‘If it’s Jun/Mizuho, it’s okay’.
Ithekro Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
If I may interject just a little.
In Seitenkan we do run through some CRACK ideas. However most of them end after a small debate on if the series and charcters can work genderbent.
Most harem shows have been eliminated with minor meta thoughts still on Kanon as tie in material for Kyon. It is more experimental than anything else and will probably not get out of prototype tests.
Shana has been experimented with, mainly as an art study. Trying to see how much like Kyon Shana-kun would look given that the two series have relatively the same art style.
I was in the process of discounting Minami-ke when I wondered how Hosaka would look as a woman and how his character would be reflected as “disgusting” by a make Maki and yet still dreaming after an male Haruka. And just how far would a female Hosaka strip in public. Other than that the idea is practically worthless because all one would do is swap the character models between the two Minami families (with something being done with Chiaki) and reverse the Touma/Makoto traps. Or perhaps switch Haruka and Hosako’s character models and be done with it. You effectively get nothing out of it so it was considered a worthless idea.
Most experiments end quickly because the nature of the show or character cannot be effectively genderbent, thus making it only an excersize in our mental capacity to think out all the possible problems the situation would have, and to see if it could work. most don’t. Haruhi, for whatever reason, does.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 1:15 pm
Haesslich: Look away (too late, at Chapter 32 at this point) ? Or get Alain and Axel to join in the heckling?
It’s a mess, a glorious unimaginable mess that you get after mixing EVA and WH40k, but it entertains. Plus, it does help that I’m bored out out my mind at work at the moment, so the literary purist in me is more… forgiving.
As to the issue of a new initiate to a fandom looking in and confusing traps with true genderflips… Well, people are putting a little TOO much faith in the mint-new fanboy/fangirl. There is no innocence, only degrees of guilt; of course there will be confusion. Of course there will be misunderstandings. That’s why the old hands will have to set the berk straight.
And I am under no illusion that the Seitenkan movement is perpetuating the fandom; it is giving them something to do while waiting for actual, honest-to-goodness material from the original source. God Knows that it’s been nearly 2 years since the last book, and the natives are restless.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
Ithekro: I can see Shana-kun working as a genderswap, although Shana’s attitude towards Yuuji/Yuuki will be problematic at times; the Shana of the original series really isn’t… socialized very well, and so has no idea of gender roles in modern-day Japan; that’s part of why she behaves the way she does, as she’s in many ways a modern ‘wolf child’ with regards to social mores and graces. How would you handle that with a male version, without making it look excessively graceless and possibly exploitative of Yuuki?
Minami-ke’s an odd case, given that it involves traps and characters who on the one hand insist on being treated like a guy (Touma), then go on insisting that they’re girls when confronted on the guy thing. Or Mako-chan, who gets imposed on by Kana, who has Haruhi’s lack of concern but with a bit more conscience due to the family bonds between her and her sisters. I really don’t want to think too deeply on Hosako, not really; the stripping might be right out, but I can see her letting her hair down and then shaking it out like she was the heroine of a dorama, with it waving in the wind… even though there’s no wind inside the classroom. About the only way a genderswap would work in that situation would be to switch the genders… but then to try to draw the comedy out of Kana getting ‘his’ comeuppance, which isn’t quite how the manga source goes.
Kogarashi’s already in a dress; we can certainly take him/her places, but most of those are dark, festering pits of insanity and madness. By the way, I’ve already dropped a bug in Sixten’s ear – let’s see wha the makes of my question.
Myssa Rei: Back when I got into fanfic… which is probably more years than I care to remember (and I KNOW I’m older than you), there was only one response to such fics: MST treatment. You may as well get Axel in for this one; he’ll love how they integrate Mana in, I’m sure.
And as I said before, fandom survives on new blood or renewed enthusiasm from new works… and Seitenken (and most fanfic) is the equivalent of the fandom… well, I won’t use the term I was going to use here.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 1:49 pm
Haesslich: Doug Weeks is a better deal, since Axel is busy with work. Plus he does a better tsukommi than I could EVER do.
And do recall, out of all the old hands, I was the one enamored of the game characters… Which is why I nearly tore my hair out at the treatment of Mana, plus the handwave that happened to Mayumi (it is an accepted fact that BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO UNIT-03). Still, it would be too meanspirited to do a MST… Even for 40k players like myself (or Doug, and HE plays Sisters of Battle).
As for Sixten and your diabolical plans, let us see what depths of madness he can go to cook up Kogarashi as Kamen no Butler Gal.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
You don’t have to do meanspirited MST’s – I’ve seen some lovely ones which are more comedic than that. All you have to do is find the mildly ridiculous spots and put in a sly or snarky comment.
And that’s Kamen no Maid GIRL. You can’t tamper with the source TOO much, with this sort of thing, lest you lose the connection/familiarity of the original source which gives it part of its charm. :P Surely you and the rest of the Seitenken people have remembered that.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 2:50 pm
Haesslich: Hai hai, I understand that much. We shall see, oh yes, we shall see the fruits of the insanity. Do tell me so I can tune out the horror when it sees the light of day.
By the way, speaking of Kogarashi (or maids in general)… The Meido RPG has become a major timesink for Me, Doug Weeks, and Axel. Talk about craziness, you should see just the stuff we rolled randomly. Doug Weeks is probably the only one who’s rolled the equivalent of MASTER ASIA for a maid (yes, you got it, in the wierdness chart, Doug got ‘You are really a man’).
My result was a: Pure, Tomboyish, and totally guileless (I rolled a score of 0 at my Cunning stat) runaway with a history of abuse (has scars everywhere as a physical feature), who is ALSO a distant relative of the master (or GM), who uses knives, has Improved Evasion…. And cries her heart out when overly stressed out.
Yes, my off hours aren’t exactly idle.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
Oh, and Haess… The fic IS called Shinji and Warhammer 40k. EVERYTHING about it is ridiculous (starting from the chapter where Shinji more or less has control over most of the land in Tokyo 3), so you will have to excuse me when I say that there won’t be an end to the snark.
Also, have you read the start of the 2nd chapter? It practically begins with ‘DJ Croft? Who’s that?’
Oh, the possibilities…Pass the popcorn.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
Myssa: You need to introduce Jason to that game. I’m sure he could make a post or three out of a Meido RPG.
And yes, I know the fic is called that – and it was meant to be madcap and completely off the wall. It had to be, in order for things to work out as they did. I still am tempted to find the author so I can introduce him to my promethium flamer, though, and the joys of the Inquisitor’s attention.
People always think I’m kidding when I talk about the toaster…
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
Haesslich: I did. I even sent the darned .PDF to his email. Still no reply.
As for Genderflipping, now that we’ve pretty much established that Seitenkan has spread, through to being part genre phenomenon and part storytelling device that is not only subjective, but owes very much to the bullheadedness of the fandom where it came from for even lasting this long… Any guesses as to what other fandom can pull it off?
I mean, there’re others out there that are as… united… in their desires as the Haruhiists, and as much as it might amuse/horrify me, I still don’t think it fits with other long-running series just as well. Ithekro more or less admitted to transposing Seitenkan to other series as a mental exercise, after all.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
Since y’all didn’t believe one of my statements…
I give you the Not-Safe-For-Work-Or-ANYWHERE-Including-Life Orange-ko. Congrats Danbooru, you sick collection of mentally-unhinged folk. Let the hara-kiri festival begin.
Again, it’s very, VERY NSFW, life, limb, or sanity. This is the sort of thing I feared way back when. Leave it to Code Geass to make my fears… become even worse than I’d have imagined.
Haesslich Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
And Myssa: Do -not- click on the link. Do not even mouseover the link. Do not admit the link exists. Until you get home. Then feel free to blast yourself into oblivion. As for the RPG, roll up a character for Jason and post it on the blog.
As for Seitenken, the only one which springs to mind that might pull off similar is NGE – but they’ve split into too many factions, in large part due to all the spinoff works and the gradual decay of the old guard’s interest.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
Haess, I play 40k, which also means I read the literature. You expect ANYTHING to shock me at this point?
(clicks on link)
Hmph, it only looks like they jammed Orange-kun’s head on a hooker’s body. And I was expecting something, well, horrific. Boo.
Anyway here’s the Meido RPG PDF. Enjoy spreading the madness to Sixten while you’re at it (and maybe Kuro here will like it too).
http://myssa.teri-chan.net/Images/Maid1.1.screen.pdf
Myssa Rei Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 7:58 pm
Here, managed to upload my actual character sheet:
http://myssa.teri-chan.net/Images/My_meido.jpg
TheBigN Said,
October 15, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
“TheBigN: I didn’t start this one.”
Of course. But I’ve found that when topics like this crop up, the two of you are sure to follow, and it’s great stuff. :3
On IRC: To Be Broken Is To Be? « Drastic My Anime Blog Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 1:00 am
[...] to be making it commonplace. So, influenced partly at how serious things seem to have gotten on this recent post of Kurogane’s, I decided to ask on IRC what “broken” really means for fun, for silliness and for [...]
Newprimus Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 2:26 am
The mediafire link is broken in the OP.
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 2:30 am
Oh god, Shinji and Warhammer 40k.
Oh. God.
Also, I should ban linking TVTropes here. I just wasted half an hour there again. Why is that site so fucking addictive?
Haesslich Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 7:49 am
Myssa: You’re not the one who’ll get scarred, but that link likely breaks every work regulation regarding Internet use that I can think of. The legs are particularly… bad. Not Suzaku-in-a-cheerleader-outfit bad, but… bad.
And the problem I have with that pic is that it looks JUST enough like Orange-kun to be semi-believable, especially with the way they cyborged him up and how you never saw him in anything but that suit until the last episode.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 7:57 am
Pfft, Kuro, you are still young I see. Old hands like Haess and me just just take a peek at the TVTropes page, find what we need, then run for the hills, else valuable work time is wasted. ;)
And boo, nobody took the time to even TEST or READ the Meido RPG PDF? I’m disappointed.
Haesslich Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 9:02 am
Myssa: Read it, didn’t comment on it. Not my cup of tea.
Magnius of the Chaos Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 10:47 am
You two are fucking insane.
In a good way.
But in a I-don’t-plan-on-reading-80-comments good way.
Haesslich Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 10:56 am
Magnius: You didn’t even see the essays in the comments field, then. 81 comments isn’t mad – Jason’s Minami-ke posts and then some of the Macross Frontier ones got way, way more than that.
Haesslich Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 11:10 am
Incidentally, ToraDora 3’s out and I’ve already lined up my expletives. Episode 4’s blog entry likely will include an essay-length diatribe which will hopefully be entertaining as well as obscene enough to violate decency laws in several countries.
Myssa Rei Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
Which reminds me, if my Graduate Degree application pushes through and I start up my writer’s blog to prepare to the inevitable final requirement for the course (100 page novel OR a pair of 50-page novellas), remind me never EVER to publicize it, to avoid luring Haess to it.
Haesslich Said,
October 16, 2008 @ 12:44 pm
Myssa: Why? Just because I’m pondering the creative ranting process doesn’t mean I’d crash a novella. And all you have to do is keep typing.
Clannad 05/06 Misae Arc \ Fall Preliminary Results « The Orange Farm Said,
November 13, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
[...] *cries* He looks good in that outfit while blushing…Am I turning into Kurogane?! [...]
12 Anime Moments in 12 Days (Day 3) - March: Ponytails are fine too « Anime Academy Said,
December 16, 2008 @ 8:46 pm
[...] the idea spread to Clannad, Code Geass and Macross Frontier where sometimes it would produce one or two questionable [...]