Code Geass R2 18
A sad, sad episode.
God damn, Nina is such a bitch. I wish she’ll be included in the final body count, as misguided as she is.
Orange-kun is kinda awesome now, somehow. I love how he proclaims that “Orange is my sign of loyalty”.
Anya Earlstreim. Is she Lelouch’s real sister? The hints are piling up.
Tamaki provides the comic relief as usual. Man this guy is pretty much useless.
Awww…. Cecile.
Aw shit, that vampire bastard’s personal squad of Valkyries are all female piloted! Bloody bastard. Such a pity they’ve all been shot down so soon. Come to think of it, this is the only time I’ve seen female piloted Knightmares apart from Kallen, Cornelia, Euphie and Chiba.
Guren Seiten Hakkyokushiki finally lives up to it’s red color scheme. 3x faster anyone?
Bloody bastard getting his just desserts.
The fateful shot.
The Four Holy Swords are now the Two Holy Swords.
NUNNALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
The aftermath.
Definitely an important episode. Code Geass is surely shaping out to be like CLAMP’s trademark X/1999 manga. It’s hard to deny the similarities already, after Suzaku “kills” Nunnally, the person most important to Lelouch. I guess CLAMP still wants to finish off X/1999, and they’re doing it in style with Code Geass.
I find it really ironic the trigger that made Suzaku shoot FLEIJA was Lelouch’s own Geass, and when he comes to know about it, it’s definitely going to deal him a whole lot more emotional damage to find out he was ultimately the one that “killed” Nunnally.
In fact, the preview of the next episode takes a rather grim tone, with a lot of footage of emo Lelouch and the distinct lack of Jun Fukuyama’s voiceover. Losing Nunnally is going to be really hard to cope for Lelouch.
And finally, here’s an interesting look at the FLEIJA control panel. Radius of effect is roughly 5-8km’s, making it quite a strategic weapon since the radius would be enough to wipe out a good chunk of enemy resistance but not wipe out whole areas outright like nukes. But most importantly, the last listed step of the weapon activation sequence step makes me worry though. Is my “space transfer” theory proving to be correct?
But I guess it still won’t matter in the short term yet. Lelouch is definitely gonna fully blame Suzaku for FLEIJA’s shooting, and Suzaku is going to seriously feel the terrible guilt of being the one who pulled the trigger.
blissmo Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 7:39 pm
Lulu will pull through in the end since he’s got all those hot chicks behind him.
Heero Yuy Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 7:48 pm
@blissmo: I sure hope he does…
And dammit Nina, I wish she’d just die already. She was an annoying warped turd of a character in the first series, and she certainly hasn’t gotten any better in this one.
DmonHiro Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 8:25 pm
For the love of Geass….KILL NINA!!! Kill her now!!!!!
Okashii Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 8:27 pm
OMG If nina doesn’t die soon I will kill sunrise off myself. I cannot wait til they reveal wtf Anya really is. I suspect that the Emperor as used his geass a lot more than we could ever know lol. When will we find more out about this thought elevator and killing the gods (and talking to clovis)? And space transfer? oh boy.
Okashii Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
btw… clamp = character designs; im pretty sure they have no say over the story?
Gravmech Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
Lots of Nina hate around here…
I’ll probably enjoy it more if Nina turned in a new leaf so to speak due to the passionate advances of a male character. It doesn’t even have to go as far as making a huge change in her character, just admitting she was wrong all along would be good.
Fat chances of that ever happening though…
Okashii Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
Gravmech lol what demented male would pursue that thing? I mean really http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YknUCFXQOrk rofl
phossil Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 9:25 pm
>> God damn, Nina is such a bitch…
Agree..
Haesslich Said,
August 14, 2008 @ 11:26 pm
Suzaku will likely be too busy blaming Lulu to feel guilt. Kallen and Lulu, on the other hand…
Zanshun Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 12:05 am
“Suzaku will likely be too busy blaming Lulu to feel guilt. Kallen and Lulu, on the other hand…”
Ummm well it is Lulu’s fault. Suzaku had the courage to NOT pull the trigger, he was FORCED to do it by Lulu. Just like Euphie was FORCED to massacre Japanese people. Every Japanese death from the massacre and now the FLEIJA is 100% on Lulu’s hands. I know everyone likes to use Suzaku as the whipping boy so that Lulu can do no wrong, Lulu is a mass murder.
Zanshun Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 12:07 am
And I’m sure we’re gonna see Suzuku beat himself up plenty and blame himself anyway next episode, unlike Lulu he has a sense of responsibility.
KNG Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 12:15 am
“The Four Holy Swords are now the Two Holy Swords.”
dont you mean the One Holy Sword. Urabe died at the Tower of Babel while Senba died during the first attempted capture of Nunnally. Now Asahina…
Asrialys Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 12:57 am
Seriously, if there ever will be a “bad end” Tamaki will be the last one standing. How is he still alive? Ejects at the sign of danger? :P
du5k Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 1:55 am
Sunrise ALWAYS love to create a big dramatic slow motion flashback death segment for more important characters… See Fllay, Stella, Euphie, Erstin, Mai Hime, etc… Nunnally being such an imporant character won’t go down just with just a bust shot. I’m pretty sure she’s not dead…
Magnius of the Chaos Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 2:30 am
“The Four Holy Swords are now the Two Holy Swords.”
Actually, there’s only One Holy Sword now.
Todou was never a part of the Four Holy Swords; the members were Bitch, Glasses, Urabe and Oldy. Urabe killed himself while fighting Rollo, Oldy got killed by Zeno (Gino) and Glasses got off this episodes.
One left now.
“Every Japanese death from the massacre and now the FLEIJA is 100% on Lulu’s hands.”
Yes, because Lulu created the FLEIJA. Oh wait, he didn’t. Nina did. But Nina didn’t play any part in the explosion because it’s 100% Lulu’s fault. In other words, there’s no blame on the people who created the weapon designed for mass destruction and the idiot who chose to carry it with him on his Knightmare Frame. Everything is on Lulu’s hands. Awesome.
haha Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 3:14 am
hehe boomzaku.
Zanshun Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 3:52 am
Yes everything is on Lulu’s hands. The greatest strength behind things like Nukes is the threat they represent. Only two nukes have been used in history, yet countries able to produce nukes make sure to stockpile them and many nations still aspire to be able to produce them. Its not about the ability to blow up millions, its about being able to hold the whole world of billions in hostage and also to keep other nations in check. That is what Suzaku meant when he told Nina its not only about the strength to pull the trigger but the strength to not pull the trigger.
Suzaku was 100% not going to pull that trigger before Lulu’s forced command kicked in. When someone under Lulu’s geass commits an action it is Lelouch performing that action. Lelouch pulled the trigger on FLEIJA.
Camario Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 4:16 am
Zanshun: It sounds fine when you put it that way, but if you go back and look at everyone else who is also part of the picture, you’d find that there are other responsible parties as well. Including Suzaku, Nina, Schneizel and so forth.
Zanshun Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 4:37 am
I’ll concede about playing others playing the part. My problem is with those giving Lulu a free pass, 100% absolved from any wrongdoing. The very act of the firing thats the part I’m claiming is all 100% Lulu, and its Lulu that needs to shoulder the blame for the actual firing. Everything else is all Nina/Schneizel whatever. In such a mass murder pretty much everyone on the battlefield is guilty to an extent, Lulu’s share of the guilt really should be more then the rest however.
Which brings me to my main problem with Lelouch, if this firing didn’t have Nunally involved he really wouldn’t of cared less about all the Japanese that died. If Lelouch shoulders any blame and guilt for this incident in the future episodes its only gonna be about Nunally, about his personal loss and he won’t care one bit about the Japanese lives, doubt anyone is gonna be able to argue this one because everyone can pretty much see how this part will play out in the episodes. Even Nina might feel a hint of guilt about the Japanese lives based on her reaction to the bomb actually being used. The three people who I can say without a shadow of a doubt won’t care one bit at all about the Japanese lives?? Schneizel, Charles Brittania, Lelouch. Quite the family huh?
Xellos-_^ Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 5:02 am
OT: Kuro are you going to cover the Saimoe this year or did Kagami getting taken hiome by Rena scare you or life?
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 5:19 am
>>Lulu will pull through in the end since he’s got all those hot chicks behind him.
I kinda lol’ed really hard.
>>Actually, there’s only One Holy Sword now.
Oops, I keep miscounting them. Damn Sunrise.
>>hehe boomzaku.
LOL.
For everyone else, don’t get it wrong. A lot of people had a hand in FLEIJA’s explosion. Psycho-Nina invented it, Schneizel funded and used it for war, Lelouch for causing the war that made FLEIJA neccessary and his Geass and finally Suzaku for letting those idiots put FLEIJA on his Knightmare and his eventual pulling of the trigger.
No one is truly innocent in all of this.
In fact, it’s truly ironic that Lelouch and Suzaku share equal responsibility for the weapon being fired.
OT: @Xellos: Not maybe until the main tournament begins.
Zanshun Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 5:44 am
Suzaku letting them put Freija on his Knightmare is a silly reason to assign him equal blame. The main reason he accepted it is because he really can’t let it be in anyone else’s hands. If you put it in just about any other Brittanian’s hands, it would of been fired straight from the beginning. Who else would you leave it to, the Vampire of Brittania?? I really don’t think FREIJA will ever be fired again, WMD are frightening enough when not fired, being fired once will be enough to force other nations to fall in line. The next episode is guaranteed to pretty much spend all its time on its aftermath, stressing the impact of firing a WMD. And again I stress its Lulu pulling that trigger, Suzaku had already committed to not firing it, there really is no grey area in respects to who pulled the trigger.
Xellos-_^ Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 7:11 am
OT: kuro,
Saimoe Main starts this weekend.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1802949&postcount=2648
Jounin Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 8:51 am
There is an extended 30sec preview that shows how close FREIJA comes to destroying Ashford and Suzaku now losing the last bit of his sanity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OedVDmA7VC4&feature=related
Whether you believe Suzaku had a hand in killing Nunnally or not (he had not intention of using FREIJA and only used it because of the combination of Lelouch’s “Live” Geass command and Lelouch wanting Suzaku dead to the point of triggering the command so to me Suzaku wasn’t responsible), Nunnally was dead anyways because Rollo was going to kill her to protect his family. Lelouch didn’t learn his lesson that people are not as easily controlled as pawns when Rollo killed Shirley and he still thought he could control Rollo one final time. Rollo’s current mental state is thanks partly to Lelouch preying on Rollo’s emotions. However way ep 18 was going to play out Nunnally was going to die and Lelouch was going to be mostly to blame for it. It is all of his scheming coming back to bite him…
Okashii Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 9:01 am
Lelouch has actually taken a lot of blame upon himself tyvm as was evident in his lying to suzaku which suzaku caught and even began to understand. Remember last episode?
Yeah rewatching the episode REALLY makes you wonder about nunally’s death….
but even so… why oh why didn’t they get Orange-kun to anti-geass suzaku? It would have been the smart thing to do :(
Suzaku has a LOT of blame in this! He has begun to redeem himself a little, but his naivety has cause a lot of stuff to happen.
On to something else…
Back in season 1 why did Suzaku see Lulu’s mother when he touched CC? Oh, and that whole CC conversation about him being able to see her and “is he also? then…” etc. Suzaku sensed her somehow, so exactly what was that about and why has it not come into play yet? How many unsolved things are there in this series?
Magnius of the Chaos Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 9:23 am
Code Geass is kind of like the Japanese anime version of Lost.
Stuff generally doesn’t make sense, the answering of a question only brings up even more questions, there’s a blind person, things from the North or South Poles are invovled, the characters are dysfunctional and every episode ends with a plot twist.
Code Geass is also like Family Guy.
It’s random madness, and every once in a while the characters will talk about stuff that happened a long time ago that have nothing to do with the plot at hand.
Setsuna-san Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 9:41 am
you forgot to mention how GAR Guilford was…..
Haesslich Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 11:22 am
Zanshun: Lulu has to take the blame for not killing Suzaku earlier, believing in their friendship, as well as not ordering Jeremiah to remove Suzaku’s Geass. Oh, and not ordering Kallen to stop fucking around with Suzaku and to kill him as quickly as she did Bradley. But Suzaku also bears the blame because the Geass can ONLY make you do something that you’re capable of doing… and Suzaku pulled the trigger of the bomb because it was there, and because he felt it was a viable option to live rather than just running… or taking Gurren Seitan out in the first place, or refusing to carry a nuke into battle.
There WERE other alternatives to pulling the trigger of the bomb, if he wanted to live (remember that he decided he wanted to die, but then the Geass kicked in). For example, if he REALLY wanted to die he could’ve asked someone else to kill him ahead of time. Or run earlier, before Kallen powered up her Wings of Light and made herself faster than anyone else on the battlefield. Or he could’ve provoked her into killing him quicker - Kallen’s toying with Suzaku was what let him pull the trigger in the first place, as if she’d just offed and killed him then they’d have been done five minutes into the battle. OR if he didn’t want to fire FLEIJA he could’ve warned her about the bomb, so she could take IT out first and THEN try to kill him… so his “live” Geass wouldn’t have been able to do all that much. Or he could’ve fought the Geass for a few seconds, the way Euphie did towards the end, and thus die.
But he pulled the bomb, and now will be emo. Whether he will be emo over pulling the trigger, or be emo and blame Lulu for everything while absolving himself of all responsibility is another story. For the record, the difference between second degree and first degree murder is intention and premeditation… but if you’re convicted of second-degree murder, you’re still a murderer. As Suzaku here is.
Ez Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
Man this is messed up. T–T
Jounin Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
Okashii, Lelouch admitted to being responsible because that is what he thought Suzaku wanted to hear so Suzaku would save Nunnally. What Suzaku saw were the same eyes he had after killing his father–Suzaku feels that Lelouch is taking the blame on the outside and hiding something deeper. Because it is something that he himself felt, while not forgiving outright, he would present Lelouch with a way to atone. What you saw was what you wanted to see in Lelouch admitting to past sins and thus you think he obtains the moral high ground, but is not how the whole scene plays out.
Haesslich, so because Euphie knew how to use a gun she was responsible in killing all of those Japanese back in the first season? You seem to forget that Lelouch’s Geass can forces its victim to do things he or she would not do otherwise. Lelouch has ordered people to shoot themselves, so he is not responsible for their deaths because they pulled the trigger? You see how your logic fails here? Granted that Lelouch’s command was just for Suzaku to live (but as he admitted it was just as much if not more for his own sake than Suzaku’s) but this is the nature of unintended consequences that Lelouch, with his confidence in his micro-managed strategies, has never truly realized. In the end, it was his Geass that killed Nunnally.
And that is not to say that Nunnally would not have died if Suzaku didn’t use FLEIJA–are we forgetting that Rolo was set to kill her? Lelouch should have learned by now that you can never create the perfect strategy to control people absolutely. He has preyed on Rolo’s emotions to gain an ally, however one that removes any threat to their relationship. After Shirley’s death, Lelouch has been looking for a clever way to kill Rolo and planned to dispose of him after saving Nunnally but never realized that it would doom his little sister as well. Either way, Lelouch would have been responsible for Nunnally’s death but the way it happened in ep 18 leaves Suzaku going past his breaking point to finally unhinge in the extended preview of ep 19.
0rion Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 3:34 pm
Gotta love Orange-kun! After being the butt of half the series’ jokes so far, he’s finally come full circle and embraced his fate, and somehow in doing so his GAR level has seemingly shot up a few notches. =P
Haesslich Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Jounin: He ordered Suzaku to LIVE, not to kill people like he did Nunnally or those numerous folks he’s Geassed into doing so. That’s why I presented all those alternatives - Suzaku could’ve run earlier, before Seitan unleashed its wings of light. He could’ve chosen NOT to fire the nuke at his OWN ARMY but instead at Lulu or Kallen. Suzaku could’ve chosen to get someone to kill him from long range - if he was capable of deciding that “yeah, I’ll let Kallen kill me”, then he was capable of saying “Hey, could you do me a favor? If you see me try to fire off this nuke, I want you to blow up my Lancelot” or “Next time I’m outside my Frame, could you arrange for a sniper?”. While Suzaku can’t choose to NOT defend himself from someone, he can apparently choose to ‘not want to live’… so he’s had alternatives all this time. He’s just chosen NOT to die, probably out of fear of death or the inability to atone for his misdeeds after death.
Suzaku had a BUNCH of choices he could’ve made prior to firing FLEIJA; he could’ve run, he could’ve gotten himself killed, he could’ve fired FLEIJA at the Black Knights instead of at the government building and at the Britannian army. Suzaku ultimately chose to do what he did, since nobody was forcing him to take Lancelot out with FLEIJA strapped to it (he chose to), nor did anyone force him to not order himself killed… and even Euphie managed to resist her Geass to some degree. If she can do it, so can the ’super’ Suzaku. And note that I said Lulu was to blame for not having Suzaku killed earlier… and Kallen’s to blame for not just killing Suzaku instead of toying with him as she did. Suzaku could’ve aimed that bomb anywhere else and lived. As it is, he’s killed millions of his own countrymen, he nuked the people who he was defending in the government building as well as members of his own army.
Now, given that this is Sunrise, I don’t expect the court martial that would normally take place or the court of inquiry that would be expected when you create a friendly fire incident that kills your own army. What I do expect is a lot of Emo Lulu, Emo Suzaku, and Kallen blaming Suzaku and Lulu while disavowing any part she had in this disaster. Seriously, if she’d just KILLED Suzaku… but no, she had to tease and toy with him first.
Haesslich Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 4:18 pm
Like he did Euphie, even.
Cyrilix Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
I fear Lelouch won’t be able to keep his sanity at the end. That’s when it will all come crashing down…
Jounin Said,
August 15, 2008 @ 5:20 pm
Haesslich, your argument falls apart at the word choice. How much choice did Suzaku actually have? At 20:05, Suzaku pulls Lancelot’s last remaining arm away and is prepared to accept his death, but that is the moment when the Geass kicks in. It also means that even if Kallen went for the deathblow right away, the Geass would activate at that point. And Suzaku can’t kill himself because the Geass command would prevent him from doing so. The whole point of Lelouch’s Geass is to rob a person of his freedom and make him absolutely obedient to Lelouch’s order. Even though Euphie found the orders horrifying, she still followed them. How those orders manifest depends on how specific Lelouch decides to be but on occasion can yield unexpected results. Suppose Lelouch orders someone to kill himself and the nearest thing he finds is a bomb and blows himself up along with a group of innocent people. Is it that person’s fault or Lelouch’s?
In the end, Suzaku would probably have never used FLEIJA if it were not for the Geass. His intention was to use it as a threat (Lelouch was in no mood to believe him) and to also make sure that anyone else who “did not have the resolve not to use it” possess the weapon. The Geass was the sole reason for Suzaku firing FLEIJA. All of those what ifs do not matter because they are merely speculations on your part and not the facts of what happened in the episode. Can you imagine the chaos in a legal system that would allow what if scenarios?
Alpha Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 12:30 am
Just saw the extended preview on Youtube. Hell, Suzaku’s going crazy.
I wonder what Lelouch will do after his Reason died.
And, what will Toudou and whatever-holy-sword left do after knowing that Lelouch was lying.
Okashii Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 6:37 am
Ok, “Okashii, Lelouch admitted to being responsible because that is what he thought Suzaku wanted to hear”
No, no… you got me wrong on that. He wasn’t telling susaku what he wanted to hear for one. He was lying and taking all the blame rather than telling the truth - such as it was a terrible accident. Suzaku said that he recognized those eyes. Lelouch took responsibility. Go back to the episode where Euphy goes mad. An old japanese lady tells him that he is their hope, and he says that he is no savior and not to make him bear the burden. But he does.
Also… notice how Euphy fights the geass for like 30 seconds. Notice how Suzaku doesn’t manage half a second. Euphy REALLY believed in not killing the Japanese. Suzaku couldn’t fight it because he did want to live, whatever else he might try to convince himself.
Haesslich Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 11:46 am
Jounin: Right UP to that point he had a bunch of choices. The Geass is a general command… and unlike everyone else, Lulu didn’t tell him exactly what to do - just gave him a general directive. This is different from him saying to Euphemia “Why don’t you go kill some Japanese?” or to a random faceless character “kill everyone in the control room, lower the booms, then kill yourself”; Suzaku could’ve chosen to fire FLEIJA at anyone but his own army and his own people. Like, say… at the enemy.
Again, it should be noted that Euphie DID fight the Geass for a few seconds… and that the Geass couldn’t make Shirley ‘live’ since it was impossible for her to do so with her blood bleeding out all over the place. The Geass isn’t magic - nor does it completely control an individual unless it’s programmed very carefully. Hell, even CHARLES (who has two Geasses) took a while to reprogram Lulu, who fought him every step of the way. It’s possible to resist a Geass, if for a short time.. but Lulu didn’t, and then fired the bomb at his OWN people (the Britannian army as well as countrymen) rather than attack Lulu with it, if he wanted to survive. I can see him not using it on Kallen, although she’d be a logical target - he might well have been caught in the blast radius if he had.
Suzaku’s geassed response only kicks in when his body is in imminent physical danger - we’ve seen this repeatedly, including when he was first attacked by an Eleven in the garden. His Geass doesn’t prevent him from talking about dying, thinking about suicide, and so forth; else he wouldn’t have been able to accept Kallen trying to kill him as a concept - only when he was in imminent physical danger did it kick in, and even then kicked in the wrong way by nuking the building and the army he was fighting to defend.
The Geass doesn’t take responsibility away from Suzaku; even if he was Geassed to live, he could’ve launched the bomb at any visible target; he didn’t have to nuke the government building in the center of Tokyo, nor did he have to take Lancelot equipped with a nuke out, nor did he HAVE to even live… since he could’ve asked someone to kill him - the Geass doesn’t seem to prevent that, else he wouldnt’ have even been able to think about letting Kallen kill him, and it SHOULD’VE kicked in when Kallen was kicking his ass two episodes back for even thinking about drugging her (knowing that she’s a soldier who’s trained in hand to hand and could’ve probably killed him, the Live Geass should’ve made him defend himself) if it worked against even the thought of suicide. He had choices all the way up to the point when he launched FLEIJA - he could’ve left in Guren Seitan, he could’ve fled the battlefield, he could’ve refused to launch with Lancelot while a nuke was attached to it and Lloyd wouldn’t have prevented him from doing so; remember that even the Pudding Lord thought it was nuts to put a strategic weapon on a tactical platform like a Knightmare Frame.
He had a lot of choices, right up to the point when the Geass triggered.. and even then, while firing it, he could’ve chosen a different target other than his own army and the seat of government for his OWN forces. The Geass only tells him to live - not what he has to do to ensure his survival; he had to decide that himself at the conscious or subconscious level. And the difference between Lulu telling someone to kill himself and that other person finding a bomb nearby and this situation is that in the former Lulu specified that death was the action required… which in turn means either finding a weapon or some other method of ensuring one’s death. In this case, Suzaku was only commanded to ‘live on’ - Lulu didn’t say “launch FLEIJA at your own army”.
Now, Lulu’s error was not letting Rolo kill Suzaku, not telling Kallen to stop messing around with Suzaku, and not telling Jeremiah to un-Geass Suzaku earlier in the episode; even if he’d accidentally un-Geassed Guildford, Suzaku could’ve gone through with his death-wish, since he’s obviously not wanting to kill himself… else he could’ve made arrangements multiple ways. The Geass doesn’t stop that - ot just forces Suzaku to act to survive when he’s in imminent danger of death.
Haesslich Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 11:48 am
But Suzaku didnt’ resist, even. Seriously, if Suzaku had even the amount of will that Euphie had, then he’d be dead by now and FLEIJA wouldn’t have been triggered. The fact that he fired it on his own army shows he was willing to do so… or at least, unwilling to NOT live. In other words, he’s still a hypocrite.
Frank Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
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Jounin Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
Okashii, all of the reasons that Lelouch gives are the truth even if he has some regret over some of those decisions. In episode 15 he admits to how everything was to create an army that could oppose the Emperor. One example is in ep 22 of season 1 and how he wanted to meet Euphie alone so he could give her a bamboo gun and Geass her to shoot him in a nonlethal spot but she convinces him of her honest intentions. When Lelouch accidentally Geasses Euphie and realizes he can’t contain the situation he goes back to his original plan and gathers all of Japan under his banner. He has schemed and manipulated together an army but at a cost of people dear to him. You can already see how the Black Knights are starting to break apart and it will not take much more for the delicate stack of cards (lies) to fall apart.
Haesslich, where to begin… I guess a good place is to ask how much blame do you think Lelouch deserves in Suzaku firing FLEIJA? If Lelouch Geasses a simple janitor to plant a bomb in a building to disable the security system and the bomb accidently destroys the building is the janitor responsible (even though he would never have planted the bomb otherwise) for not placing the bomb correctly or Lelouch for making the janitor do it? Also, wouldn’t you think the last thing people want to do is put a gun to their head and pull the trigger? Shouldn’t people resist Lelouch’s Geass commands to kill themselves? Also do you agree or disagree that Lelouch’s Geass forces people to absolutely obey his orders? If you disagree when has someone not obeyed?
Euphie being able to resist for as long as she did is a testament to her will but she ultimately succumbs and did not pause after she started. Just because someone succumbs immediately does not mean that they had some desire to fulfill the Geass order. Were the soldiers in ep1 of season 1 suicidal? Were there any signs that Darlton would betray Cornelia? And in the case of Lelouch Geassing Shirley, how is something that controls just the mind suppose to stop the body from bleeding through a bullet wound?
I still do not understand how Haesslich is blaming the characters for not doing what he thinks they should have done. When analyzing a movie, play, or book, all you have is what the characters have done and you can analyze their behaviors and try to read what the writers intend and cite their actions as evidence. There is no use in blaming them for things they do not do especially actions you want them to do.
FlameStrike Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 3:27 pm
I don’t think Lulu knows that Suzaku’s geass is even still in effect, Suzuku mentioned it once during their meeting but he wasn’t specific in that it was still on going. Also it might be Lulu’s geass that caused Suzaku to launch the nuke, I’m sure nukeing the place isn’t the only way to live.
Also what’s with Suzaku not catching on that he is geassed? I mean multiple attempts at his life have been made and EVERY TIME he surives because of the geass, and he realizes this too, so why did he think that when Kallen was about to kill him he wouldn’t be effected by the geass?
Oh yeah and how long does the geass last anyway? I remeber Lulu testing it with a student by making her mark a wall to see how many days the effect can last. Shouldn’t Suzaku’s time have run out already? Or did sunrise forget?
Magnius of the Chaos Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 5:03 pm
Actually, I don’t think Suzaku intended for the FLEIJA to hit the government building; rather, I think he shot it to either destroy Kallen’s Guren or to drive her away, thus forcing her to stop her assault on him. The fact that the government building was behind the Guren was simply fate… or the Sunrise staff screwing everyone over under the masquerade of “coincidence”. Which really brings up questions about the Geass of Obedience and FLEIJA.
Exactly how does FLEIJA activate? All we see is the thing travel for a distance before exploding. Is the explosion triggered after a certain amount of time, or by distance or by contact? I mean, if the thing had hit Kallen, wouldn’t the explosion have been triggered at that spot? Unless FLEIJA had some type of armor-penetrating power (which I somehow doubt) then Suzaku would have been caught in the blast and killed, rendering his action of firing the FLEIJA useless. In other words, dying at the hands of the Geass that forced him to take that action to live. Something just as ironic as Nunally’s death.
So, back to Suzaku’s Geass. If the above case happened, then does the Geass of Obedience do things that might violate the Geass, as long as it achieves the desired result for that one moment? Or did the Geass take into consideration the fact that Kallen would be able to avoid the firing? Also, another point raised in the arguments. If the Geass gave Suzaku no choice at all, then it would have forced him to run away instead of even attempting to fight Kallen in the first place.
I don’t blame Suzaku for the massacre, at least not totally. However, I am against the view that Lelouch is the sole person responsible for the genocide. Trying to play the connect-the-dots-of-blame with Lelouch and the explosion is just pathetic. Points the people raise when putting the blame on Lelouch include 1) his starting the entire thing, 2) his Geassing Suzaku, 3) his lack of guilt and so on. Yet, people seem to somehow stop right there. It’s as if the game has its limits, and the boundaries end with Lelouch. Wait, why did Lelouch start the war again? Oh yeah, because he wanted to uncover the truth behind his mother’s death, create a safe world for Nunally and take revenge on his father for doing nothing. So then, the massacre of the FLEIJA is on the hands of Marianne, Nunally and Charles. In other words, Nunally is responsible for her own death.
Of course, that above accusation is a load of crap. But it’s pretty much just as much a piece of crap as the entire Lelouch is entirely responsible for the whole thing. You wanna continue playing the game? Then try going deeper. None of this crap would have occurred if Britannia never invaded Japan or the other countries. And so on. Or we can try an alternative route. Lelouch was able to form the Black Knights why? Because Japan was the only state under Britannia’s rule where the oppressed fought back earnestly. Why is that? Cause the death of the Prime Minister caused the takeover to happen while Japan was yet not suppressed in spirit. And who’s responsible for that? Suzaku. Oh, and Charles. And then Charles’s parents… and so freaking on.
Firing the FLEIJA, as I see it, was pretty much Suzaku’s only choice. His Lancelot was no match for Kallen’s Guren and had lost most of its limbs and weapons. Nor could he retreat, since, as it has been said so many times in the series… LANCELOT DOESN’T HAVE A FUCKING ESCAPE POD / LAUNCH. So then… this is Lloyd’s fault! Why didn’t he install one there after OVER A FUCKING YEAR? He gives it wings… but no means of escape? Hell, even a loser like Tamaki can survive thanks to one of those. Some bastard who should have died a season ago manages to stay alive thanks to escape pods.
However, it was only Suzaku’s choice for that instant. There were so many other choices he could have made before that. He could have chosen to retreat. He could have chosen not to take the FLEIJA - though I do understand why he took them. Like he said, he was the only person who could take it with the intent of not using it… making him the ideal person to carry it, had it not been for the Geass, which also made him the worst person to carry it. Another sense of irony, eh? And Suzaku KNEW about the Geass on him, I’m pretty sure. He even blames Lelouch for it during their encounter. If he knew that, he should have known that it would kick in the moment that Kallen was about to finish him off. If he truly wanted to die right then and there, he would have removed the FLEIJA from his Lancelot soon before the Geass kicked in.
And… stuff. I’m not really sure what kind of conclusion I’m trying to reach with this. That’s the beauty of the Internet, I’d say. Guess I’ll have more to say when people decide to argue against my views.
hitoshura Said,
August 16, 2008 @ 7:28 pm
Lulu should have gotten orange to use the geass cancellor on suzaku right when he added orange to the party lol.
Kurogane Shiroikaze Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 12:23 am
Wow, the discussion about “blame” is really getting quite out of hand.
Seriously, I do not believe any single character should be given all the blame. All the actors have played their parts in this tragedy of epic proportions.
Haesslich Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 6:39 am
Jounin: Lulu has plenty of blame to shoulder for not killing Suzaku before this, but blaming him completely for Suzaku’s actions is hypocritical. Lulu’s part in this debacle is that he had several chances to eliminate Suzaku’s Geass or Suzaku himself… and didn’t take them, due to his wanting his friend to live, even if they were on opposite sides. Oops.
Suzaku was geassed to “live” - a very general command, and one that ONLY kicks in when he’s physically in danger. And it’s one that can be resisted - Euphie did it, Lulu tried to do it before he got overwhelmed, and others have struggled with their Geasses for at least a few seconds. If he was -that- serious about suicide, surely he could’ve managed a three-to-five second struggle, long enough for Kallen to fry him in his cockpit. On top of that, as I said before, if he was really serious about dying, there were ways to arrange it. If he never truly intended to use FLEIJA, then he could’ve sortied in another machine without it. He had many, many times to make a choice up until the Geass activated… and even then, his subconscious and conscious minds had choices on how to follow the ‘LIVE’ command. You’re treating the Geass like it was a ‘word of God, all-controlling program’ which takes every contingency into account… which obviously isn’t the case, to judge by how often Suzaku’s moped around saying he wants to die, shortly before he does his supersoldier impression. Suzaku doesn’t want to die, or at least he’s afraid of death… and therefore, instead of struggling with the Geass so Kallen could do her thing as he’d contemplated, he fired FLEIJA.
He could’ve done a lot of things differently - nobody forced him to take Lancelot out with the FLEIJA weapon, and Lloyd certainly didn’t want to deploy it on Lancelot. If he’d taken Guren Seitan out, which he should’ve with all the upgrades that Lloyd wanted to show off, he could’ve won the battle without massive casualties on his own side. As Magnus points out, Suzaku’s quite aware of his Live Geass by now… which is one more thing he blames Lulu for. Kallen will have to carry the guilt for the ten million deaths on her own conscience too, though - as noted, she was too busy fucking around trying to torture Suzaku by taking Lancelot apart piece by piece rather than overwhelming him the way she did Bradley and frying him in a second. She wanted revenge, and Tokyo paid for it. Lulu wanted Suzaku to live, and now has to live with the idea that Nunnally died because of the Geass he put on Suzaku (as well as Suzaku firing the damned thing) on HIS conscience.
And so, a tragedy will play out.
Jounin Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 6:51 am
FlameStrike, all of the student body except for the student council were transferred back to the Britannian homeland after the first Black Rebellion. What that girl is now doing is beyond anyone’s guess but it seems that a Geass command stays with a person until it is fulfilled.
Magnius, you don’t have to go that far back to assign blame to so many people. You could say that the situation in ep 18 got out of hand because Suzaku wasn’t assertive to Lelouch about not betraying him or that Lelouch handles perceived betrayals very poorly. In regards to how everyone ended up to episode 18, there is plenty of blame to go around. But when isolated down to why Suzaku fired FLEIJA, it is obvious that Lelouch’s Geass command to live is the reason. The main reason why I was commenting so much is because of what I thought were incorrect ideas from Haesslich on how the Geass worked and how he was blaming characters for not doing things he thought they should have done.
And Haesslich, your reason for calling Suzaku a hypocrite is not accurate because of how you believe the Geass works. If you want to call anyone a hypocrite, it would have to be Lelouch. A definition of hypocrite is someone who says one thing but acts contrary to his claims. Lelouch creates Zero to be an ally of justice but his actions are far from that goal. When he pins all of the blame of the actions in ep 22-23 on Euphie, where was the justice in that action? When they save Tianzi and Lelouch wanted to arrange a marriage between her and Ougi or Tamaki only to be shot down by the female Black Knights, how was that different from the eunuchs? When he ordered the Zero squad to massacre the Geass organization and lied to them about why so that he could feel better about Shirley’s death, how was that justice? Suzaku offered him a chance to redeem, but fate and the writers would not allow that.
Haesslich Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 7:55 am
Jounin - Suzaku says he wants to die… and yet when given the chance he doesn’t. If he was REALLY serious about it, he had plenty of opportunities to arrange things. Euphemia really believed in doing the best for the Elevens, which is why she fought the Geass as long as she did - if Suzaku believed as strongly that he should die, then he should have been able to do something similar. He said he wanted peace, which is why he murdered his own father to end the war with Britannia - he says he wants to make things better for the Elevens, yet at the same time condones any actions Britannia takes against his homeland. He says he wants to die… but cant’ even fight the Geass to live long enough for Kallen to do the job, even though he SAYS he accepted it. That’s as hypocritical as Lulu wanting to make a better world for Nunnally by destroying the old one that she grew up in.
All Lulu’s Geass does is rewire the brain, per the CGI shown when a Geass is laid, to make a person follow a certain set of actions… but the person has to be capable of doing so, and if the command is very general that is up to the Geassed person’s brain to figure out how to enact it. That IS the main difference between Suzaku’s geassing versus everyone else from Euphemia down; he has to decide how to live, and the Geass only kicks in when he’s in immediate and mortal danger; beyond that, the Geass doesn’t set any restrictions on his actions. If he was capable of talking about and contemplating suicide, then the Geass on him was general enough to allow him to enact a suicide so long as he wasn’t the one doing it (which would violate the “Live” command) and if he wasn’t in immediate danger. A sniper shot to the head would’ve done the trick, as would a bomb on his Frame as long as he didn’t put it there or pull the trigger to detonate it.
Beyond that, the Geass organization would be the equivalent of the doctors of Unit 731 or any team of scientists directly involved in creating or developing weapons of mass destruction - they were a legitimate target, at least so far as if one was out to completely destroy the Geass Cult and its possessors. They weren’t completely helpless, as witnessed by the children Geassing the Black Knights who showed up there; they were armed with non-conventional weapons which had the potential to be at least as dangerous as Lulu if not Rolo. Again, you keep blaming Lulu solely for Suzaku’s actions, when Suzaku has to own up for how he conducted himself up to this point - he didn’t have to take the bomb out, he could’ve fled earlier in the battle before Kallen demonstrated she could outrun him, and if he really wanted to die… he could’ve fought the Geass long enough for Kallen to finish the job. But he didn’t want to die, Kallen fucked up by not killing him right away, and Lulu fucked up by not removing the Geass or Suzaku earlier on before the pivotal moment.
Lulu WILL blame himself for this mess; Kallen will probably blame herself and Lulu as well as Suzaku for this mess. Suzaku is likely to blame only Lulu for this issue, denying that he could’ve done what his treasured Euphemia did because of a Geass, ignoring his own guilt by projecting it onto others… as he has always done. Lulu is not a good man, but neither is Suzaku - the only difference is that one knows he’s doing evil (Lulu) and admits it to himself, while the latter tries to be righteous but finds himself left with questions as to how ‘good’ he really is before rationalizing it all away.
Jounin Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
Haesslich, I am starting to get tired of this because you are sticking to the same claims without any evidence and ignore any evidence I present. How do you figure that Suzaku wants to live when the entire scene in ep 18 makes it clear that he was prepared to die and even moves the Lancelot’s arm away to accept Kallen’s final blow only to have the Geass command override his will? So because Suzaku knows he has been Geassed he purposefully puts his life in danger to trigger it? Unless you present some evidence in the series, that is only in your imagination. Suzaku went into battle to try to stop Lelouch either by talking him down or killing him with his own hands. When Lloyd and Cecile told him to run because he could not win against the new Guren, Suzaku commented how he could not because Lelouch was in front of him and only realized after the Lancelot took too much damage that he could not win. And the way you make Suzaku’s Geass command different from everyone else is unfair and unsupported. Yes, Geass rewires the brain, but it does so to make the person completely obedient to Lelouch’s order. Lelouch did not need to tell the soldiers how to kill themselves, they grabbed their handguns and pulled the trigger. He did not have to micromanage how Euphie killed Japanese (pretty vague), she ordered her troops to kill all Japanese and then went out to find any weapon she could to do it personally. All that is important to a person being Geassed is to fulfill the order. How it happens is up to the writers to decide.
Another thing you forget is that Suzaku is looking to atone through his death. Simply committing suicide does nothing to help his people. Back in ep 8 of the first season Suzaku comments how he is prepared to die to save his friends in the hotel incident. In ep 11 when Lloyd comments how Suzaku’s reason for entering the Brit military was going to get him killed, it was probably an outcome Suzaku did not mind. Finally in ep 18 when he captures Lelouch and waits for the missile strike he was perfectly willing to die there, but it has to be for a reason.
I also find your judgment of Suzaku to be narrow-minded. It basically comes down to a judgment that because Britannia is evil everyone who works for Britannia is evil. You dismiss any history of Suzaku’s decision to join the military as well as what he almost acheived in the first season. We see in ep 16 that a young Suzaku is deeply affected as he walks through a field of dead bodies (we also see that Lelouch doesn’t mind terribly much). In order to stop that he confronts his father. We don’t know exactly how it plays it out but we do know that it leaves Suzaku with a horrible feeling of guilt for acheiving his goal in an underhanded way. After he parts way with Lelouch and Nunnally he is alone and gets taken in by someone who owns a motorcycle similar to Rivalz’s (ep 6.75). What she teaches Suzaku is unknown but he joins the military afterwards. He does so to atone for his father’s death by affecting change through following the rules. This is also a time before Zero where Japanese resistance groups are carrying out guerrilla attacks that are probably killing some innocent civilians. One group in particular in ep 1 stole what they thought was a chemical weapon. One thing about joining the Britannian army is that Suzaku has to deal with the scorn of his own people (ep 5) but of Britannians as well (ep 3, 4, 6, 7, 17). It takes a lot of resolve to take the insult of both sides. It is a necessary burden to try to earn the respect of the Britannians and show the Japanese what is possible within the system.
It is actually ironic that Suzaku probably owes his rise through the ranks to Lelouch by providing Suzaku a chance to show his skill to the right people like Cornelia, Darlton and Guilford. Suzaku being charged with Clovis’ murder also caught Euphie’s eye. Because of this Suzaku not only starts to earn the respect of Britannians like Darlton and his classmates in Ashford (ep 6 for saving Lelouch and ep 18 when he becomes a knight) but also becomes a light of hope to other Japanese who see that it is possible to achieve something in the Britannian system as noted in ep 21 when Sayoko comments to Kallen and ep 22 where some Japanese cite Suzaku as the reason for joining. Unfortunately this dream gets destroyed when Lelouch’s Geass permanently activates. And with the total Japanese revolt of the Black Rebellion, Suzaku was in a totally different situation where his greatest ally and love is gone and needed another method to achieve his goal. He figured obtaining the title Knight of One was the quickest way, but Nunnally revived his old dream by trying to acheive Euphie’s goal. You will recall that in ep 8 everyone was about to start another slaughter when Zero pulled his stunt to get a million of his supporters out of Area 11 but Suzaku stopped them all as Lelouch predicted. Under Nunnally’s guidance, we see Area 11 become quite prosperous and its status changing to something more beneficial than what Lelouch left it at the end of season 1. Unfortunately Lelouch decides to bring back another war…
Lelouch has a tendency not to accept any blame. All of the deaths that he has caused were just sacrifices to create a new world for Nunnally. He commented in ep 13 of season 1 to Kallen how they had to keep killing to reach their goal to justify the previous deaths. In ep 25 he murmured how sacrificing Euphie was meaningless if something happened to Nunnally. Also, don’t forget that Lelouch’s original goal for the Geass Cult as cited in ep 11 was to capture it and gain an advantage against the Emperor. This changed when Shirley died and Lelouch blamed Geass for her death. What he got wrong is that Geass is how she died, but why is because Lelouch thought he was clever in preying on Rolo’s feelings in order to use him and an unintended consequence was Rolo killing Shirley in order to keep a relationship that Lelouch built up (this is also the same reason Rolo uses in wanting to kill Nunnally in ep 18). Lelouch ordered the massacre in a fit of rage and not as an act of justice. C.C. told him as much that they were unarmed. Dropping bombs can be morally ambiguous (ask Afghanis how they feel about air strikes that go wrong), but sending in an army to massacre everyone is definitely wrong. When Black Knight members started to have doubts, Lelouch ordered that he cannot be questioned and then lied to them about his true objective. In the aftermath, a Black Knight member, who probably enlisted b/c the Black Knights stood for justice as Lelouch constantly claims, thought they were no better than Britannians. This event is also what causes Asahina, a Holy Sword member, to turn against Lelouch. If so much doubt is forming in the Black Knights because of it, how is it a legitimate target?
The way you put it how Lelouch will blame himself for Nunnally’s death because he did not kill Suzaku is incorrect. He will likely blame others for spoiling his plan. I am not sure what Suzaku will do once I saw how he finally loses it in the extended preview.
Obviously Haesslich you hate Suzaku and all of your comments are colored in that light. I may not be completely objective, but I try to justify all of analyses with evidence from the series. I don’t hate Lelouch as a character, but I am finding how he uses people more and more distasteful. People may think he is clever, but the incident with Euphie back in season 1 changed that for me. And how he used Darlton (who I thought was a decent character who valued a person’s skill over racism) and threw his life away was another indication of how cruel Lelouch can be. Suzaku has his issues to be sure: his indecisiveness is his biggest weakness and is only made worse by how over-extended he is by being a Knight of the Rounds, Euphie’s Knight, an Honored Britannian, and Japanese. The fact that Suzaku is still questioning himself can actually be a good thing because if the right path presents itself then Suzaku is one of the most likely characters in Code Geass to take it. Whether Lelouch will take another route depends on how he takes Nunnally’s death.
tofuulove Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
NIN!!!! GO DIE!!!!! I HATE YOU!!! GO DIE!!! ALL HER FAULT!!!!
Haesslich Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
Jounin: The reason I keep ‘ignoring’ that is because if he really WANTED to die… he could’ve arranged it. The Geass doesn’t control him to that extent - he has more freedom under that particular Geass than say.. Guildford or Euphie had. It doesn’t dictate what he HAS to do - merely that he find a way to fulfill it. That is the BIG difference… Your examples are misleading: those soldiers are told to kill themselves, Euphie is told to kill Japanese. Lulu only told Suzaku to survive - it’s very open-ended compared to those close-ended orders that everyone else got (”Kill yourself”, “lower the booms and kill yourself”, “when I take this pose you will see me as Cornelia”). Suzaku’s geassing by Lulu is virtually unique, and seems to be far less controlling in many ways because of it. Suzaku’s usual response to the “Live” Geass is to fend off danger in as decisive a manner as possible… and he really, really didn’t have to fire FLEIJA at Government House. Surely Lulu’s ship would’ve been a better target.
As you stated, Suzaku wants to atone for his misdeeds - that indeed is one reason why he is unlikely to seriosuly contemplate suicide… which brings me back to my point about ‘he doesn’t want to die without atoning for his actions’, which was noted some posts back but which you yourself have ‘conveniently ignored’. He could’ve arranged for his death… but didn’t. We also know he murdered his father, but blanked out the memory, due to the trauma of having done so. This is very much in character for him - he wants to be righteous, but at times will act in ways which are not very ‘righteous’ and then has to find a way to justify the act. This is why things in R2 are going rather badly for him - he turned in his best friend to get promoted so he could claim Area Eleven as ‘his’ area so he could enact Euphemia’s dream of a Special Administrative Zone that would allow the Elevens more freedoms than they had up to this point under Britannian occupation. What he forgot was that this SAZ would depend heavily on the willingness of Britannian (specifically, Charles vi Britannia and his court) to indulge Suzaku’s desires… and of course, he didn’t know Schneizei’s been maneuvering behind Charles’ back.
Notice how Lulu’s changed - if only somewhat - in S2, after he’s recovered his memories. At first, he was the same old bastard, although towards the middle part he seemed to have softened after confronting the determined Nunnally and realizing that she wanted something other than what he wanted to give her. Nunnally shouting for Suzaku broke Lulu’s heart - he had to realize that at that point, Zero the figure had become threatening enough that even his little sister was seeing him as the boogeyman. So, he tries to fix things by being more humane… and because he didn’t put a leash on Rolo or get rid of him, loses his NEXT ‘pet goldfish/moral pet’ Shirley, who had been to some extent Nunnally’s replacement in his reason for trying to be ‘good’ and to justify for himself what he was doing. He consulted her on things which were minor in the big picture (re: handling Tian-zi) but which affected his relations with those closer to him (Kallen, etc).
You also seem to have forgotten one important fact - the Black Knights were never really ‘the good guys’ - they were terrorists whose actions killed hundreds of their own countrymen in the name of overthrowing the oppressors until Lulu came along and gave them goals as well as targets which supported their (his) objectives versus random acts of terror. With regards to eliminating the Geass cult, which was a change of direction, may I point to you how the Allies considered German bomb factories and the scientists who were working towards weapons development to be legitimate targets? The Geass Cult shared much in common with them; the main difference being that some of the targets were children. And the Black Knights, who have by this point developed an image of themselves as ‘defenders of Japanese’ rather than merely ‘rebels taking down the oppressors and their traitorous Japanese collaborators’ started having some doubts as to whether Zero’s orders were to support the liberation of Japan (their goal) or to set Zero up as Emperor of Japan and the rest of the world instead.
That’s why Asahina and Diethard are starting to move against Zero - not because they feel that he’s going to ask them to kill more children (they’ve already done that, prior to Zero joining them) but because they feel he may be using them not to free Japan but to take it over for himself… and then move on the rest of the world. They’d be trading one tyrant (Charles vi Britannia) for another… and the knowledge of his Geass will make things worse, as it did for Kallen when she discovered that Lulu had it and underwent her own crisis of faith early in R2. Between the existence of the Geass, the possibility that Lulu ‘ordered’ Suzaku to nuke Tokyo (rather than his real order to ‘live’) as well as the information that Schneizei will feed the BK’s about Lulu and Suzaku meeting just before the disaster (collaboration with the enemy), they will abandon him… especially if Schneizei promises the BK that Japan will rule itself. Incidentally, Schneizei made the same offer to the Eunuchs during the China arc… although I don’t see how Schneizei would let them rule themselves for long; probably just long enough to weaken them and get his own forces ready. Or perhaps he was waiting for FLEIJA to be completed… which gives him a trump card over most anyone else at this point - a WMD that can do as much damage as a company of Knightmare Frames but which can be deployed by a single unit. This would give him a decisive military advantage against other nations.. just as America enjoyed after it deployed the first nuclear bomb.
Lulu -will- be taking blame this time, and likely turning his rage onto Rolo as the most convenient target. He will also likely blame Suzaku for nuking Tokyo and his own people… and himself for not having saved Nunnally. And that, combined with the BK abandoning him, will likely send him completely around the bend for a while.
For the most part, Suzaku’s doubting himself only began recently - up until he started talking with Shirley, he really didn’t see himself as doing much wrong. He could feel guilt (which is why Anya helpfully signed that Eleven’s execution orders), but he also tends to have a ‘I’m right, you’re wrong’ mentality which Shirley poked a few holes in… until she died, which left Suzaku with more rage against Lulu for what he saw as his role in Shirley’s killing (thinking it was deliberately ordered, rather than the act of a psychotic boy that Lulu had allowed too much leeway). Suzaku is likely to blame Lulu completely and not take any blame… only feelings of guilt for his role in the tragedy. It fits the pattern - Suzaku has shifted blame away from himself since before he killed his own father, then went on to join the Britannian Army as a means of trying to make amends… then becoming a Knight, then becoming a Knight of One…
I really don’t see a happy ending for Suzaku, much less Lulu - about the best thing both of them can hope for at this rate is that they die rather painlessly, and perhaps with a feeling of absolution. Suzaku’s a hypocrite, and Lulu’s an opportunist who justifies his acts by trying to take vengeance for his mother and sister. None of the characters on this show, save perhaps Euphemia and Nunnally, were truly admirable or even innocent… except perhaps Millay.
lic666 Said,
August 17, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
*spoiler*
Nunnally is alive, as well as Sayoko, all of the conclusions above about Suzaku/Lulu at fault will be disproved the next couple of episodes. And there is more than what meets the eye (cough cough ^o^ Anya!?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TmkNgu7Clo
(read the thread, but be warned it is a MAJOR spoiler)
Jounin Said,
August 19, 2008 @ 10:04 am
Haesslich, I am getting tired of this argument because you do not use any evidence from your series to back up your claim. Much of your posts are filled with inaccuracies that they are too numerous to point out, but I’ll try! Using a negative like a character not doing as you think he should is not proof of anything. Take your suggestion that because Suzaku is not dead yet as you think he should be, he is not really serious about dying. On two separate occasions, one in ep 4 of season 1 where he heads back to the trial after Lelouch saves him even though Lelouch claims that they will kill him in an unfair trial (because the Japanese would be punished if he did not stand trial) and another occasion where in ep 18 where he captures Lelouch and waits for an aerial strike to kill them (he was caught in a trap and had few options and this was a chance to stop Zero), he was quite ready to die and was prevented from doing so by some interference from Lelouch. Your idea that Suzaku should arrange his death is nothing more than suicide that would be meaningless because he is not giving up his life for a reason but setting up his own death. Faking some scene of heroism is also not how Suzaku operates (it is how Lelouch operates though). Who are you exactly to decide how someone should die? Granted Suzaku has an unhealthy obsession about how he should atone, but because your only evidence comes from how he is not dead yet even though he has shown his resolve on several occasions and we hear his inner thoughts is unfair on your part.
Again your assumption that people under a Geass order are responsible for their actions is absurd. Where is your evidence that Suzaku had any free will to decide what to do when under the affect of Geass when no other character in the series was able to? Just because you think the command is different and therefore Suzaku should be responsible is unsupported in the series. Also, if you watch ep 18 of R2, you will notice that Kallen has to dodge FLEIJA so that is probably why the Geass chose to fire it in that direction.
Also, your assumption about how Suzaku blocked the memory and that is in keeping with his character is incorrect. In ep 5 of season 1, Suzaku tells Euphie that his father had to die to end the war so he obviously remembers and has been using it as a motivator for his actions up until the end of season 1 when he leaves the pocket watch with Euphie’s body. And if it is the rule that the Knight of One gets an area, who are you to say it won’t happen and would it be Suzaku’s fault that the Emperor didn’t keep his promise? And Suzaku asking to be a Knight of the Round was only a few days after Euphie’s death and Lelouch wasn’t exactly very repentant. It was cruel but in some ways justified. His dream was also completely shattered by Lelouch and he had very little left to salvage it with.
In regards to the Geass cult massacre, your reading of that incident is incorrect again. It is one thing to bomb from on high, it is another to send ground troops in and have them know that they are killing children and be ordered to do so. Lelouch told them that the cult was making immortal super soldiers and that they all needed to die for the atrocity. Any super soldier found would be captured and interrogated by Lelouch directly. Only one person would live from this order, V.V. So essentially, Lelouch picked the cruelest way to find him, his men slaughtering unarmed people while he watched from above. And Asahina and Diethart did not think that Zero was going to try set himself up as the next emperor. Asahina only suspects that Zero cannot be trusted because no ally of justice would keep so many secrets and order a massacre (Diethart only wanted a story to tell and continued to back him until it was clear that the Black Knights were going to turn on Lelouch). And that is what the Black Knights thought they were, allies of justice. That is what Lelouch said back in ep 8 of season 1 and many other occasions where they would defend people regardless of nationality (but really Lelouch’s target was Britannia).
I’m not going to argue anymore because it is too tiring proving all of your inaccuracies and using Kurogane’s blog for that is probably unfair. Besides ep 19 aired so there may be new stuff to argue about.